Signalling Underwater when running out of air !!

[andycornish]

I spent las weekend at Chepstow quarry training, and on the Saturday managed a new pb of 32m (Constant Weight), also managed 25m (Constant Weight No Fins ). These both felt comfortable and although it was a harder dive it was not near the limit of my breath hold.

The next day (after camping and a late night) went down to the quarry and felt if anything better than the day before, had a few normal warm up dives. Then after a 5 min breathe up attempted 35, i got to 31m before i felt my breath hold was not up to it and bottled it. After a break (5-6mins) i tried again and managed 25m this happened again managing 28m.

I then had a 6-7 min break and a 5 min warm up. I then managed to get to 35m but felt like i was really pushing my breath hold (equalisation was fine) and my buddy said that i did not look happy on the way up. 2 questions really 1) was i just tired from the day before ? 2) is there a signal i can give a buddy underwater to show that im not feeling good ?

Apologies for the long spiel just wanted to give as much info as possible.

Andy

 

[fcallagy]

Only guessing andy but tiredness and dehydration could have been factors or mentally you were pushing yourself that day to repeat the performance while the day before you had nothing to gain and nothing to lose if you understand me so no physcological pressure to hit that depth.
2.cant see any reason to signal a buddy that your out of air. They should be able to see if your in trouble when they meet you. raising your arms to give a signal will waste O2 and casue a drag slowing your ascent just try and relax and tell yourself your nearly there each kick. Scuba signal is cutting your throat with your hand but that means you have no air left in your tanks and that you need to start buddy breathing.

On a different point eq is always waht stops my depth its only oon the return where I feel oh shit I may have pushed this a bit too much.

 

[nz676]

We all have good and bad days sounds like you just had a bad one. I know i tend to get frusterated when im noware near my capabilities and cant push past a certian depth this can make it worse cause you feel obligated to reach it. Sometimes its just better to take a day off if your not enjoying yourself.oh and good job on a new personal best thats always exciting

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

3 grunts maybe?

Not blowing out bubbles though, don't wanna lose your air. (I can make various screaming/squealing noises underwater without expelling any bubbles)

 

[hteas]

Try facing your dive buddy, slash across your throat with one hand (no knife in it), and shake your head "no".

 

[JennyWren]

We use a signal that doesn't take too much energy and is pretty visible to your buddy, wiggle your hand side to side (like a horizontal wave), the way you would do if someone on land asked if you were ok and you were saying "I'm only so-so".

Your buddy should be close enough to see if there is a problem, though (that freaked out look in your eyes!) but sometimes it's not that you are necessarily going to black out, but you just want a helping hand to get up, that's when the hand wiggle is helpful. It tells your buddy "I think there might be a problem, please come help me" while also letting your buddy know that you still have the capacity to identify that there is a problem yourself.

 

[ReefTroll]

3 grunts maybe?

Not blowing out bubbles though, don't wanna lose your air. (I can make various screaming/squealing noises underwater without expelling any bubbles)

You might not "expel" bubbles, but this sort of comment is getting dangerously close to the thread by alixir....

 

[andycornish]

Thank you for the advice everyone, and when we next go training will try out different techniques and see which works best for me. As when i am running low on air I dont want to have to think which sign means im not feeling good.

On a different note would the temperature make a big difference, as i was a few degrees colder the second day.

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

You might not "expel" bubbles, but this sort of comment is getting dangerously close to the thread by alixir....

Which thread where?

 

[waxlips]

lil' dragonfly! hi there my tip is to silently mouth the song no air by jordin sparks to your friends(if they know the song). they will later laugh with you about it when you are ok.

 

[Chris_C_NZ]

isnt it just as simple as agreeing to whatever-the-signal-is before hand?

Something as simple as moving a hand - like the signal for cramp - is easy to see no matter where the hand is, and your buddy should be in a position to be able to see your hand at all times, if they know thats the signal to look for.

Totally agree that doing anything that is going to be using more significant o2 is not a wise idea so small and obvious signals are the way to go.

 

[Andrew the fish]

andy, lets go from the beginning. First off - you are putting yourself in a trouble the moment you are trying to play the numbers, like "I should be able to stay down such and such time" or "I should be able to reach such and such depth". That is where the trouble originates, not in "what did you eat the night before" kind of thing. All in a dicision-making, and part of your trining should include some form of decision-making process, discipline and courage to quit before reaching that magic time or distance.

The other thing is - I always do much worse on a consecutive day if I did wonderfully on the day before. Not because of any particular sleep or hydration pattern, it probably has something to do with recuperation which probably takes more than 24 hrs.

 

[Siku]

you are putting yourself in a trouble the moment you are trying to play the numbers, like "I should be able to stay down such and such time" or "I should be able to reach such and such depth". That is where the trouble originates, not in "what did you eat the night before" kind of thing.

Suggestion: How about putting a piece of gaffa tape over the face of your computer and only reviewing the data at the end of the day?

 

[andycornish]

Suggestion: How about putting a piece of gaffa tape over the face of your computer and only reviewing the data at the end of the day?

Good suggestion to stop looking at the computer and not just concentrating on the dive, problem I would see is I use it to know roughly when to go down for safteying. And then also if they have been down too long if I cant see them

 

[bobdonny]

Good suggestion to stop looking at the computer and not just concentrating on the dive, problem I would see is I use it to know roughly when to go down for safteying.

This is sensible... but its safety before... putting yourself in a situation..
The below is when.... you are in a situation...

And then also if they have been down too long if I cant see them

As obi 1 would say.... let go... trust your instincts

 

[andycornish]

As obi 1 would say.... let go... trust your instincts

I think that is the best way forward, last year at the end of the summer when at my last training session of the year I pushed it and had a SWB(at the surface) and my buddy came up looking very very blue on a different dive so we both know exactly what its like when someone is short of air so no need for signals really.

On a more positive note I know why I blacked out (forgot my hook breath) and have manged to do the 37m since a lot more comfortably.

 

[trux]

As obi 1 would say.... let go... trust your instincts

Hmm, I'd tell it differently: follow your instincts, but do not trust them. Always have a backup, a reduntant safety measure ready. The instincts may work most of the time, but sometime they simply fail. The reasons for it are numerous, but it is unfortunately so. That's why there are so many dead spearos each year. And many of them were very experienced ones, with well trained instincts.

So the more redundant safety measures you add, the better. Just to name few: always have a buddy watching you (not just diving somewhere near), avoid hyperventilation, use a buoy, set max depth and max time alarms, get used to drop the belt, routinely use hook breaths at surfacing, get the FRV (Freediver Recovery Vest), have an emergency plan (knowing the closest hospital, hyperbaric chamber, having a phone near, knowing the tides,...), get a CPR course, a freedving course, ... Instincts are good, but not always reliable. You better have something more than just them.

 

[Siku]

Trux: Any idea how much the pressure in the lungs increases during a hook breath? I mean if air at the surface is 1 atmos, is the hook squeezing the air in the lungs to double that? Triple? I'm just curious how much this technique increase PP or O2?

 

[trux]

The pressure change in lungs is very marginal. At a pulmonary pressure double or tripple of the ambient pressure, you would be very certainly a dead man. The increase is somewhere in the order of units of percents. I have somewhere exact numbers from measurments of packing (which would be likely higher than a simple hook-breath), just not right at the hand now. However, if I remember well, the average intrapulmonary pressure increase was some 5%.

Anyway, the PaO2 is not the most important factor at hook breath. Avoiding blood pressure drop is the more important one, and by keeping the pulmonary pressure even just lightly above the ambient pressure, you avoid the sudden blood pressure drop.

 

[Siku]

Thanks Trux. 5% eh? Well that is lower than I expected... I'd like to measure that and see what pressures I am adding more exactly.

In terms of compensating for blood pressure drop, am I right in thinking this will apply more to people with a low blood pressure then? Does blood pressure drop dramatically for everyone when we surface and exhale?