Skin Diving Question

[blueface]

I recently got into a discussion with a scuba instructor about hyperventilation. He was teaching students to hyperventilate (not to excess) and then take a breath and dive. I know that it is proper technique according to his course director and the book that he uses but I strongly disagree. I did not make my opinion known to him or his students. I did not undermine his teaching in anyway but I want to know why is this still taught to students of scuba diving?

Skip

 

[trux]

On one side it surprises me, because myself I did a scuba course 25 years ago, and breath-hold diving was inseparable part of it in that time too. And already in that time, they taught us about the risks of hyperventilation, and why avoiding it.

On the other hand it is comprehensible - hyperventilation is a very simple and a too tempting technique for doubling or tripling the time of comfort. So it is not so surprising that those without experience or deeper knowledge go on teaching beginners to use it. Very dangerous on my mind, because even if you tell them to use it only in a very limited and controlled way, once they are alone they may easily overdo it (going for more comfort, or simply being under stress and hyperventilating so already naturally), and die in a SWB. On my mind, beginners who do not plan competing, should be taught to avoid hyperventilation like a pest.

At competitors, who dive in safe conditions, there is space for experimenting, and for getting close to, or even over the safe limits without the risk of loss of life, but at common skindivers, snorkellers, spearfishers, or recreational freedivers, the hyperventilation poses much greater risk, which (on my mind) is not worth of the longer comfort.

 

[blueface]

On one side it surprises me, because myself I did a scuba course 25 years ago, and breath-hold diving was inseparable part of it in that time too. And already in that time, they taught us about the risks of hyperventilation, and why avoiding it.

On the other hand it is comprehensible - hyperventilation is a very simple and a too tempting technique for doubling or tripling the time of comfort. So it is not so surprising that those without experience or deeper knowledge go on teaching beginners to use it. Very dangerous on my mind, because even if you tell them to use it only in a very limited and controlled way, once they are alone they may easily overdo it (going for more comfort, or simply being under stress and hyperventilating so already naturally), and die in a SWB. On my mind, beginners who do not plan competing, should be taught to avoid hyperventilation like a pest.

At competitors, who dive in safe conditions, there is space for experimenting, and for getting close to, or even over the safe limits without the risk of loss of life, but at common skindivers, snorkellers, spearfishers, or recreational freedivers, the hyperventilation poses much greater risk, which (on my mind) is not worth of the longer comfort.

I agree with everything you said and sadly I have seen a person die as a result of hyperventilating. One could argue that it is a direct result of being misinformed about hyperventilation.

At the memorial service I had a conversation with one of his close friends and she told me a story that was very surprising. She said, with tears in her eyes, that he was proud of his newly found skill (freediving) so I asked her to elaborate a little and she told me that Joe (ficticious name) would hyperventilate on the surface for a while and then hold his breath and dive to the bottom. Joe would try to encourage his friends to try it. I immediately told her that it was very dangerous to hyperventilate and explained why.

This is difficult to discuss because I was the one who tried to give him rescue breaths.

Skip

 

[BennyB]

So sorry to hear about your friend Skip, that must have been hell for you.

I mentioned this in another thread a few years ago, but when I was much younger, years before I had seen The Big Blue or knew anything about freediving, I somehow had picked up the notion that to hold your breath for a long time you needed to hyperventilate. I do not know where I learnt this, whether it was old tv shows watched as a toddler or maybe my parents (only a couple of years ago I found out my mum was an excellent breath hold swimmer) or books, but I definitely 100% believed that hyperventilation was the way to hold your breath for longer. Even on my honeymoon in 2004 I was hyperventilating like crazy on my snorkelling reef dives. It wasn't until a couple of months after this that I found DeeperBlue and started learning about the dangers of hyperventilating. I often wonder how many other people in the water (that know nothing of freediving) this this way also.

I think in some respects it is difficult to teach about hyperventilation because the effect is so different from person to person (ie the common questions is: "i'm breathing, but how do I know i'm hyperventilating?"). Whilst you can explain it, we should put as much emphasis on learning the signs and symptoms of hyperventilating as well, so the freediver can recognise when they are hyperventilating and that they need to adjust their breathing accordingly.

 

[samdive]

Unfortunately the PADI Open Water Diver course still asks instructors to teach hyperventilation - I put a lot off effort into trying to get this changed when I worked for PADI but didn't have any luck.

 

[azapa]

I am wondering what they really teach. Ten (or more) fast, deep breaths then dive?

Remember that some well known freedive schools still teach "purge breaths" with the warning that there should never be more than three, and then some shallow breathing to boost CO2 and reduce HR. To be honest though the purge breath exercises are often associated with static, and not open water.

 

[trux]

Unfortunately the PADI Open Water Diver course still asks instructors to teach hyperventilation

I really wonder why. As I wrote, already 25 years ago, when freediving as a sport discipline did not exist (and very little scientific research was done in that field), in our military scuba training, any hyperventialition prior breath-hold diving was a very strict no-no. It is true though, that the training was based on CMAS standards, and not PADI.

 

[blueface]

Thanks for all the responses. I have not had a single dive instructor argue with me on the subject so apparently many are not convinced that it is safe practice. I have made it known to my friends who are instructors how most free divers feel about hyperventilation and hope they would use caution whenever they discussed it with students.

We don't allow our scuba divers to freedive off our boat but they are allowed to snorkel and it's never been a problem.

Skip Perry

 

[cdavis]

Hi Skip,

Your description sounds like the scuba instructor might have been teaching "purge breath" type of hyperventilation. As long as he included a clear warning that too much was a bad idea, why, and what the symptoms of extreme hyperventilation are, I see minimal problem with that approach, for the students he was teaching. If he included no warning, that seems utterly incompetent, bordering on criminal. Even 40+ years ago, excessive hyperventilation was a well known no no.

Was he including any warning?

Connor

 

[blueface]

Hi Skip,

Your description sounds like the scuba instructor might have been teaching "purge breath" type of hyperventilation. As long as he included a clear warning that too much was a bad idea, why, and what the symptoms of extreme hyperventilation are, I see minimal problem with that approach, for the students he was teaching. If he included no warning, that seems utterly incompetent, bordering on criminal. Even 40+ years ago, excessive hyperventilation was a well known no no.

Was he including any warning?

Connor

Hi Connor!

It's good to hear from you! I'm sure he included a warning. he is a responsible instructor and would not have over looked that. We have spoken quite openly on the subject and I've made my point of view known to him. I also recomended this site for more info on the subject.

Thanks!

Skip

 

[The111]

I have not been active in freediving for many years, nor on these forums.

I've also never been SCUBA diving, ever... and I'm taking an open water PADI course in Hawaii next month on my honeymoon. I'm doing the PADI e-learning now and it just blew my mind when I saw the video teaching how to "hyperventilate for a skindive." I wanted to see if anybody else had commented on this topic... and I dug up this thread. I would go so far as to say it is almost criminal (in my mind) that they would teach this at all, let alone without explaining the risks. WTF? :rcard:rcard:rcard

Edit: Hi Cdavis, we met years ago at Blue Springs. Funny to see your "criminal" comment echoing mine. The e-learning video says very simply, with no caveats, "hyperventilate before your skindive." The only positive thing I can say is that they do tell you to have a buddy on surface watching... but that is not nearly enough. If my instructor in person gives me that exact same speech... I will not be able to hold my tongue or resist undermining his authority. :naughty

 

[cdavis]

Hi 111, welcome back. You will enjoy the time scuba gives you, but not all the crap on your back.

I saw the same thing in a PADI magazine article a couple of years ago. Somebody ought to sue'em. Good American tradition the helps curb dangerous stupidity.

 

[Simos]

Sam and others: shocking about PADI and HV. I am so surprised at this!

I am not too sure if 3 purge breaths are anything to worry about but the problem I see is that it's a slippery slope; I started with 3 but then before certain tough dives (pool exercises with increased co2 levels) I would do 4-5 purge breaths. Sometimes also when there is a countdown to 'official top', you start purge breaths a bit early because of stress and because you can't dive before top time, you end up with 5-6 purge breaths before the dive.

In theory it's not too dangerous for competitions as mentioned but I think habits are hard to break - once you get used to diving after say 10 purges in competitions, I doubt everyone will revert back to no HV for a spearfishing dive...

 

[The111]

You will enjoy the time scuba gives you, but not all the crap on your back.

You are right about that! At Blue Springs growing up we always thought the SCUBA squids looked terrified, oblivious, and clumsy.

I wasn't really scared, and I was pretty much in control of my position and motion... but I still felt somewhat oblivious (limited peripheral) and clumsy (limited quick maneuvers). But it was still a cool experience.

And on topic, my instructors were both smart enough to know that the stuff the PADI video online says is total BS. They were actually surprised when I told them exactly what it said.