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sled diving within AIDA

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Should AIDA hold a Special Assembly/Referendum on sled freediving?

  • Yes

    Votes: 66 55.0%
  • No

    Votes: 46 38.3%
  • Don't Mind

    Votes: 8 6.7%

  • Total voters
    120
  • Poll closed .

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
556
151
133
43
• In 2007 Sebastian Naslund wrote: this article, ending by saying: "No limit will evolve and the discipline will see more deaths. I think it is a good idea for Aida to disassociate itself from the NLT discipline and only represent the athletic sportive side of freediving - the competitions."
• Today's article in the Gulf News calls on an end to the 'stunt' dives, after the most recent tragedy of Adel Abu Haliqa's death.

• Finally, this document has been submitted to AIDA International by AIDA NZ and other concerned members to request a Special Assembly, in which AIDA's continued activity in the sled disciplines would be evaluated.
If you are an AIDA member then your opinion counts on this important issue. We strongly encourage that you contact your AIDA national to express whether you think there should be a Special Assembly on the matter.
With so much at stake with the image of freediving and AIDA itself (which is apparently now in growing competition with organisations such as CMAS and SSI) it is important that AIDA members are clear as to whether they want to continue association with the minority assisted-diving disciplines, which in recent years seem to bring mostly public disrepute.

Sincerely, William Trubridge.

N.B. If you are expressing your opinions here, I think it would be considerate if we reserved the discussion to the sled-disciplines in general, not the most recent fatality (which is still under investigation by the Greece coast guard & an AIDA commission)
 
this is only my opinion:
i think man have an "understandeble deasise" to push the limits, and often in search for improve logistic to do so...
but i was never in agreement with no limits as a pure and satisfactory achievment [as CWT is]
so in my opinion the no limits should be disassociate with AIDA disciplines
 
Hi William, In general I share the same opinion as you and as AIDA NZ, I will forward this ideas to AIDA CRO president. Never the less I doubt that national AIDA's will do anything regarding this question if AIDA INT do not make some kind of announcement regarding this or start a voting procedure.

PS. I got a replay from AIDA CRO, that something already started at AIDA INT and that there was all kind of sugestions, but nothing final and nothing final, and no one has sad something that can really be used as that.
 
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this is only my opinion:
i think man have an "understandeble deasise" to push the limits, and often in search for improve logistic to do so...
but i was never in agreement with no limits as a pure and satisfactory achievment [as CWT is]
so in my opinion the no limits should be disassociate with AIDA disciplines
forgot to mention that we are not affiliated yet at AIDA int, but we are in progres with that [i meant FREEDIVING ROMANIA - ROUMANIAN ASOCIATION FOR DEVELOPING APNEEA]; yet, at the present we are allowed as observer :)
 
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The document linked above was sent out to all AIDA nationals, so if you are a paying member of your national AIDA and haven't been informed or consulted about this then you might want to write to your national AIDA board to ask why that is.

If another 7 AIDA nationals respond in favor of a special assembly vote then it will go ahead, and this is ultimately what we are striving to realise: a thorough AIDA international vote on whether to continue activity in the sled-diving disciplines.
Even if you are unsure where you stand regarding sled-diving, but think that a referendum on the topic is a good idea, then you should encourage your AIDA national to respond in favour of a special assembly.
 
what can I say,

I fully agree with You Will. As I said many times, NL and VWT are the most dangerous disciplines and I will never try it.
I've been on equal depth in CNF than current national record in NL stand, and still, I don't care about them and will not try to brake them. You have my full support and I will forward this topic to my Aida National.

regards,
Matt Malina
 
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i personally think that if it is not dissasociated with by aida then at the very least, stringent safety precautions are put in place and that stipulations are put in place so divers can not dive far below their relative PB s in other disciplines.
i dont want to get into discussions about this as im really saddened by recent events and really feel for all involved .
 
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AIDA Denmark disassosciated itself from sleddiving national records in 2007 on initiative from Peter Pedersen (after Loic Lefermes accident) - before I entered the sport. Personally I agree with that decision.
 
For historical reasons, I wouldn't want to see sled diving go. From Chatzistathis in 1913 to Nitsch today, the weight assisted diving has been a big attractor of freediving. And not just for the media.

I have only tried sled diving three times in my life, but I count them among my most beautiful dives. One variable to 35m in Sardinia, a no-limits to 45m in Kreidesee in Northern Germany, and a no-limits to 25m in Dahab. In the latter I tested a sled as a judge prior to national record attempts. A sled that later dangerously malfunctioned in the actual record dive and caused the athlete to suffer blackout (which further illustrates the dangers of malfunctioning equipment).
On the 35m variable I had an instructor accompanying me down and up. The 45m one was a from a German contractor. It has so far been the dive of my life I enjoyed the most, and an example of how sled diving can and should be conducted. The sled was in two parts and parted in two with the same mechanism that triggered the air to the balloon, this through a lanyard attached to my wrist, so I only needed to extend my arm to get back up. If that mechanism failed, I was thoroughly instructed to detach myself from the lanyard and turn the valve on the lift vest I was also wearing, a backup system I didn't need that day. The perfect tourist dive.

I don't know if Adel was or was not wearing a backup lift system, but none has been mentioned so far. In the case of Audrey Mestre, she was not wearing a backup lift system. In a recent accident for Yasemin Dalkilic, a backup lift system prevented tragedy. Similar to how backup shutes prevent tragedies in sky diving. In the case of Loïc Leferme, I know he habitually used a backup lift system, but his was a case of sled entanglement, I believe.

I am very wary of AIDA attempting to quelch people's pursuit of sled diving, even in the wake of another tragedy. Both because of my own positive experiences with the sled, which I would like to have others experience (in safe conditions), and because we need a proper agency to further develop this activity's safety measures. I fear this reaction to Adel's accident would be mimicking CMAS' old decline to support any apnea, which in my opinion made freediving even more unsafe, because people still went diving. I am very concerned that AIDA would only promote even more people to sled dive without guidelines. (This counterargument is duly mentioned in the Kiwi document above).

One note from the document reads:
"A sled diving setup is just as complicated as a technical scuba rig, and takes people to even greater depths, with much higher risks, and yet no formal certifications are required in order to use the device."

Then perhaps this is the counteract, the introduction of certifications to private sled contractors. Many freediving schools are already in existence to enhance a certain high level safety standard in freediving generally, so why not something similar for 'tourist sled' companies?

There's a simple principle from scuba diving, which I believe also applies to all apnea: Know your equipment, and know the limitation of your equipment. In the case of freedivers, our equipment is largely our bodies, and each of us has to know our bodies and especially its limitations. In the case of sled diving, that extend to the sled as well, which further add to complexity.

Consider that technical diving is on the top ten of most lethal sports compared to number of participants, yet organizations like TDI, IANTD, NAUI, etc. continue their efforts to enhance training and thereby safety. They do not flee from the safety challenges and shouldn't.

At some point in the 1960's, the state of New York in the US considered banning professional boxing because of various risks. This of course they gave up, mostly because people would've organized prize fights anyway, and then better to have it under the proper roof. It may be a far fetched analogy, but my point is that people will always be weight diving, and I'm against running away from the inevitable safety challenges, because I fear it will only make matters worse. Even though one sled death is one too many.
 
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AIDA attempting to quelch people's pursuit of sled diving

At first I thought 'quelch' would be a pretty cool new word - a cross between 'squelch' and 'quench', which rather nicely describes what some of us want AIDA to do to sled diving. Then I looked it up. Sadly, I think the kids got there first :(

Chris, note that the AIDA NZ proposal is to discontinue ratification of NLT and VWT records. This would not necessarily mean stepping away from the safety aspect of sled diving as a recreational or training activity, or from keeping a historical record of sled dives.
 
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At first I thought 'quelch' would be a pretty cool new word - a cross between 'squelch' and 'quench', which rather nicely describes what some of us want AIDA to do to sled diving. Then I looked it up. Sadly, I think the kids got there first

(Give me a break, I'm not Anglic...)

Chris, note that the AIDA NZ proposal is to discontinue ratification of NLT and VWT records. This would not necessarily mean stepping away from the safety aspect of sled diving as a recreational or training activity, or from keeping a historical record of sled dives.

And if Nitsch or Musimu or somebody wants to go for the 1000 footer, then what? Especially Nitsch would have proven that he has a damn good idea about what he's doing. Why would we not honor any such potential achievement officially?
 
What will that do though. The people that are atracted to nl and vw don't often care or follow Aida. And by having stricter regulations may help prevent future dangers .
Changeing the sled setups so a narked diver isn't filling a tank or pulling a bolt might be a start.
 
What will that do though. The people that are atracted to nl and vw don't often care or follow Aida. And by having stricter regulations may help prevent future dangers.

I still don't want to deprive them of the opportunity of having dives officiated in an official agency. But I'm all for stricter sled guidelines in the wake of this. And if 'the tourists' and private contractors see official attempts with strict safety requirements, hopefully that can spur further safety out there. I remember it had that kind of effect on me, when I watched Pelizzari's attempts in the 90's.
(Even though the Kiwi document above suggests that AIDA's sled guidelines may have had an almost null effect in bringing down casualties.)
 
Just some initial thoughts.

Why wouldn't an athlete in pursuit of recognition be happy with Guiness and media attention?
I don't think the desire of (self)recognition can be confined by any organisation.

What I do recognise is that an organisation CAN have a positive influence on how the training and attempt is done.

I do recognise the NLT discipline is more dangerous, therefore need more thought, redundancy and skill. Reading Will's opening post I had some thoughts on how to make the sled mechanically automatic. Still things like loose drift nets, current etc can be lethal, also in CWT... Than again it's like climbing the Mt Everest.

I think inventions like the Freediver Recovery Vest (A NLT/VWT version), working automatically, would make VWT and NLT much safer.

Still sled diving is considered freediving, and by removing Official recognition you will NOT take away that association.


It's good to have the discussion, I appreciate it!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars
 
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Hi,
As we can see all NLT/VWT dives had an accidents during a training and not in official records(correct me if im wrong).
I think a training dive is always a bit more dangerous then an official dive cause usuly the safty level is higher in comps or records attempts.

Leaving this diciplins out of a formal organization maybee will make less people to go on a sled OR will make a siries wild west.

I had only one try on VWT sled almost 10 years ago but in the last 4 years many deep dives of VWT without a sled-using a weight belt going head down,which i expirience less dangreous/less mechanical.

Hope we are going to the right conclusion,
Alon.
 
Emotive subject. I would just like to add a view.

I think people should have the right to choose what they do. If you remove recognition from this aspect of the sport I just don't think it will go away. Having a professionally run governing body such as AIDA overseeing rules and regulations is the safest way for it to be done. Maybe we could change some methods/equipment to make it even more safe.

Maybe stricter rules could be implemented to the point where it becomes more difficult to go deep quickly using this method, official courses, minimum dives, minimum safety etc. Even so there will be incidents. Many people die or are injured in sports incidents every year, it is tragic, it was however their choice to participate.

I think NL/VWT is as much a part of our sport as Constant weight. I think healthy discussion about how to regulate it and improve safety even further is good.


The point about the perception of AIDA being damaged is a valid one. I think AIDA Nationals should vote to have this discussed and as a community decide on the way forward. It would be a shame to see the disciplines removed though IMHO
 
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For historical reasons, I wouldn't want to see sled diving go. From Chatzistathis in 1913 to Nitsch today, the weight assisted diving has been a big attractor of freediving. And not just for the media.

When thinking about sled-diving or talking to its supporters, this seems to be one of the major (and only) supporting arguments: historical continuity.
For those who share these views, the following might be a useful thought experiment:
Try imagining that depth freediving is and always has been just three disciplines: CNF, FIM and CWT. Any time anyone talks about freediving the only image it conjures is of someone swimming down and up under their own power.
Picture that, and then imagine someone proposing a new discipline: in this new one you just hang on to a device that takes you on a return trip while you hold your breath. The only limitations to depth are the safety of the device and your ability to equalise your middle ears.
Do you think this new mechanical stunt would receive a warm welcome into a collection of sporting disciplines called freediving?
If you wouldn't welcome sled-diving as a new discipline in the above thought experiment, but you aren't in favour of the current motion for a Special Assembly then your approach is to repeat history for history's sake..
If you would welcome sled-diving as a new discipline to freediving then it begs the question: why don't we now also welcome scooter-assisted dynamic? After all it would be the direct horizontal equivalent of No Limits. What is stopping AIDA from ratifying this worthy new discipline?

Freediving has matured a long way as a sport. I believe it is now time for it to shed its historic skin of sleds and lift bags in order to progress as a true sport and a safe practice for newcomers.
 
I don't think AIDA should totally disassociate from sled diving (not the official opinion of AIDA finland but my personal view), for the simple (and many times recited) reason that people will keep doing it anyway, so better that someone is keeping an eye out for them.

Instead I would be in favor of even more analysis, better standards and guidelines and serious questioning is the current way to do it safe.

It could be argued that esp. no limits is not really "free diving", but something else all together and something that maybe deserves it's own federation (which I'm sure would pop up shortly if AIDA stopped recognizing it). But I don't think we (freedivers) are so numerous that it's a good idea to split into different factions and federations once more.

However, I think AIDA could make it somehow more clear what the difference of "sports disciplines" vs "stunt disciplines" is, I don't know exactly how, but give more emphasis and value on the "sports" WRs maybe. In fact, if AIDA didn't allow separate record attempts but only allow world records to be broken in competitions, we would have no NL world records, but maybe we could have some kind of "AIDA recognized stunt" status...Fishing here a little.

What ever AIDA does or does not do, it will never have control over what people do in their private trainings. People will keep sledding and accidents will happen in the future too (for if no other reason than the simple fact that sled diving is really fun). But I think it's valuable to recognize that the activity is there and try to learn from the accidents. I have mixed feelings about the sanctioning of records, but at least I think AIDA should be also in the future the organization that is following, developing and guiding the evolution of sled diving in some official form.

And damn you Mullins for making me look up the word "quelch".
 
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Just to continue Will's thought experiment, how would one call 'No Limits' and 'Variable Weight' breath-hold diving?

Indeed I think it involves both diving on breath-hold, and therefore falls under the definition umbrella of "freediving", even though the diver is much more dependent by the equipment used.
Going to the other extreme, one could say that diving unashamed, diving as we arrived, without any lines etc could be considered the purest Freediving.

Supporting something out of tradition is a logical fallacy.

I think that I need more data in order to come to any conclusion.
So here some questions:
- How has AIDA contributed to safety in NLT and VWT?
- Have these additions saved or negated any incidents?

Furthermore I think the nature of our sport is as well as beautiful and gracious, also is harsh and brutal at times, just like the sea. I think it takes care, courage and vision to deal with these extremes.
 
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Maybe we could change some methods/equipment to make it even more safe.

Maybe stricter rules could be implemented to the point where it becomes more difficult to go deep quickly using this method, official courses, minimum dives, minimum safety etc.

Fair point apneaboy, but hasn't a lot of the above already been done?

It seems now that sled diving safety has been streamlined to a minimum of a sonar, a winch and a couple of safety divers. Reliant more on technology than physical safety divers. The old PADI slogan "dont switch off your brain when you switch on your computer", comes to mind.

I know I am not an expert on the subject, but the subject matter is out there to read. And I have tried it to a shallow depth of 100ft and two things already went wrong, on just my dive. On the same day, two other things went wrong on a dive to 50 metres and the instructor with the student burst an eardrum. Fortunately the student was compus mentus enough to brake the sled and initiate the tank opening/lift bag fill, and took the instructor up with him. Imagine just that at shallow depths, what can go wrong technically at deeper depths where there is no direct supervision.

There are just a few people out there who have written a guideline on sled diving. For me, its like 10 people who decide to invent and build an airplane, that works most of the time, but now and again, it crashes and people are either injured or there is a fatality. Is sled diving the russian roulette of freediving?

As a comparison, take sky diving. Tried and tested by 1000s of sky divers and military personnel world-wide. The amount of experience and knowledge that has gone into sky-diving is a 1000 fold when compared to the extreme sport of sled-diving. Since 2004 there have been approximately 472 fatalities in sky diving, however that is a global figure but see how many jumps those individuals had at the time compared to how much deep practice people get to do on sled diving (on an average).

A person who's PB is no more than say 50 metres is then doing attempts to dive to 100 metres. I don't see the logic and while I see that you cannot stop people from doing it, it will only appear as an encouragement if it is still offered on the records plate.
 
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