Speargun purchase, help!

[olliric]

Hello Guys,
I am going back home to Italy soon and I need to buy a new arbalete. I see many of you know all that is available out there and I hope I can get some advice.
I have not used arbaletes in years since I have been doing very well with a Cyrano 850. I spearfish mostly in the tropical belt around the world while I am cruising on sailing yachts. Many years ago I used few Cressi Apache 110 (20mm in line bands) and Omer MB 105 (20mm in line bands). I loved the silent release of the cressi and hated the noisy Omer. Overall I prefered the Apache despite the scary bending of the gun under load. It was a good gun overall. I have no experience with the new open muzzle guns, I see the advantages but I also worry about banging the loaded gun on the spear tip.
I used to have SS hinged wishbone on the arbaletes but I have seen interesting bulk rubber band kits which may be better.
Here is the specification I need the gun to meet.
1 - Lenght around 100CM. The gun will be normally used for aspetto as well as for agguato (ambush).
2 - Possibility to increase the power (with additional band) , mount reel and heavier spear for blue water encounters while sailing offshore.
3 - Possibility to easily dismantle the handle to pack the gun in a bazooka fishing rod older I use when I travel to the yachts. Also for packing reasons a tubular is probably better. Unfortunately something like the C4 would not fit.
4- Suggestion for good quality reel. I am used to big game fishing reels and I find the average speargun reel a bit too basic.
5- Suggestion for aftermarket Italian spears. I was thinking of 6 mm hardened SS for everyday use with inline bands and 7 for additional circular band and pelagics.
I look forward to some good tips. At least tell me what to stay away from.
Thanks
Cheers
Giovanni

 

[Marwan]

you could try the rabitech or rob allen south african railguns, in the 100-120 cm size they come with standard 20mm bands and 7mm spears, you could use 2x16mm bands as well with an 8mm spear a better setup for blue water.
the rabitech reel is very sturdy. Other reels could be from omer (omer pelagic reel or aluminum reel 50). Spears either demka shafts (spetton), or from italy the devotosub make some of the best quality spears..

hope this helps..

 

[olliric]

Thanks for your reply Marwan,
The choice will have to be among Italian guns, sorry I did not specified. It would save me time and money since I am going there. Besides I would hate to buy a gun without having touched it.
After checking few sites out I found the Omer Cayman HF a good candidate. I believe it can turn really powerful with 2 circular bands and it's probably also sturdy given the elliptical section, the 28 mm diameter and load carrying ability of the release mechanism. I was not impressed with the Omer stuff I have owened over the years but I hope I was just unlucky. I wonder if the Cayman is quiet when it shoots. One of the reason I want an arbalete is that are generally the most quiet. That to me is a priority often overseen. The fish sometimes don't realize the spear is coming despite the slow speed of the spear at the end of the range.
Did anybody heard the cayman shooting?
Cheers
Giovanni

you could try the rabitech or rob allen south african railguns, in the 100-120 cm size they come with standard 20mm bands and 7mm spears, you could use 2x16mm bands as well with an 8mm spear a better setup for blue water.
the rabitech reel is very sturdy. Other reels could be from omer (omer pelagic reel or aluminum reel 50). Spears either demka shafts (spetton), or from italy the devotosub make some of the best quality spears..

hope this helps..

 

[spaghetti]

Apache and MB? You must have been away from Italy for a long time! There are dozens and dozens of new models on the shelves, so that its' so hard to make a choice. However, welcome home. If you tell me what part of Italy you're going to, I can suggest good shops for your purchase.
-speargun: the Cayman is not yet available in shops: it will be on the shelves one week from now and nobody has tried it yet, except the testers of team Omer. In theory, it may be the one to match your needs.
-shafts: For the 6mm, the best is Devoto SS for the quality of the steel (really tough!!! un acciaio durissimo che non si piega nemmeno se ti ci incazzi), or Seatec Top Extreme for the ballistic qualities (più elastiche, hanno l'aletta a scomparsa in una apposita fresatura: io uso queste). For the 7mm, I'd pick the Seatec Australia with sharkfin tips instead of cut notches. Omer is making a 7mm with sharkfins too, called the America, but I haven't tried yet.
-Reels: I use the Omers and they're all good. The metal ones are excellent, but also the plastic Match 50 is very good (è leggero nonostante la massa e fila molto bene). Ti consiglierei, su tutti, il nuovo mulinello Seatec Energy: oltre al guidafilo basculante (che c'è anche su quasi tutti gli Omer), ha un geniale strozzasagola a molla che tiene compatto il rocchetto, riducendo a zero il rischio di parrucca. Ti assicuro che è impressionante: Seatec Energy. E' disponibile un adattatore per montarlo su fucili non Seatec.
Fammi sapere in che città sei: potrò consigliarti, forse, negozi che fanno offerte speciali. ciao.

 

[olliric]

Ciao,
I am from Recco, Genova. Thanks for the good tips on reels and spears. I am friend with the guys at Top Sub. I bought about 15 custom wetsuits from them for a bunch of freedivers friends here in Canada. They have Omer stuff.
The Geronimo Pro is also an interesting gun. I like the band attachment lifting when shooting. It has a variable section shaft but I am not sure if it can carry a set of 2 18 or 20 mm bands without bending dangerously. I am not sure the release mechanism can take the load either. The fact that it has the additional circular band hole may suggest that it can carry double bands.
Unfortunately it comes in 95 and 105 not 100 Cm.
You seem an expert and I would like to have a word with you, possibly in Italian. If it's alright send me your phone No. at ciri@lightspeed.ca
Cheers
Giovanni

Apache and MB? You must have been away from Italy for a long time! There are dozens and dozens of new models on the shelves, so that its' so hard to make a choice. However, welcome home. If you tell me what part of Italy you're going to, I can suggest good shops for your purchase.
-speargun: the Cayman is not yet available in shops: it will be on the shelves one week from now and nobody has tried it yet, except the testers of team Omer. In theory, it may be the one to match your needs.
-shafts: For the 6mm, the best is Devoto SS for the quality of the steel (really tough!!! un acciaio durissimo che non si piega nemmeno se ti ci incazzi), or Seatec Top Extreme for the ballistic qualities (più elastiche, hanno l'aletta a scomparsa in una apposita fresatura: io uso queste). For the 7mm, I'd pick the Seatec Australia with sharkfin tips instead of cut notches. Omer is making a 7mm with sharkfins too, called the America, but I haven't tried yet.
-Reels: I use the Omers and they're all good. The metal ones are excellent, but also the plastic Match 50 is very good (è leggero nonostante la massa e fila molto bene). Ti consiglierei, su tutti, il nuovo mulinello Seatec Energy: oltre al guidafilo basculante (che c'è anche su quasi tutti gli Omer), ha un geniale strozzasagola a molla che tiene compatto il rocchetto, riducendo a zero il rischio di parrucca. Ti assicuro che è impressionante: Seatec Energy. E' disponibile un adattatore per montarlo su fucili non Seatec.
Fammi sapere in che città sei: potrò consigliarti, forse, negozi che fanno offerte speciali. ciao.

 

[gladiator]

Spaghetti: I am going to Firenze in 2 weeks on a short work assignment, I was wondering if you could recommend any shop there or in the vicinity.

Sarei molto grato per alcun suggerimento.

Grazie

 

[mundial]

hi
if yuo are looking for a strong good gun
& money isnt en issue U can look at
Dapiran super Jedi
http://shop.dapiran.it/default.aspx?cid=ARB
or


Abellansub
http://www.abellansub.com/productos.php?op=1

2 woden EURO guns that 2 of my friends having & enjoing every minute from them

 

[strangelove]

I would also look into teak-sea , I really like my Pal-100 but I don't like their reel.

www.teak-sea.com

 

[olliric]

Thanks for the Tips guys,
The Dapiran super jedi is an amazing gun but unfortunately it cannot be taken apart to be packed with the fishing rods as I need for travelling. It is also too heavy in air.
I have just read some of the ballistic engineering study of band guns by Giorgio Daipiran and other doctorates in enigineering. It's quite amazing, they give all the scientific clues to judge the design of any kind of gun. Now I understand why some older guns would not perform well.
I hope that those studies have been translated in English, they are priceless for anyone that wants to understand performance in spearguns. All the half a dozen studies published by him and other engineers are a must read for anyone that want to buy a gun.
Giorgio Dapiran is a legend in the sport, it turned spearfishing into a science. He is also an amazing hunter with 40 years experience and made some amazing films on spearfishing.
His site is a treat, and I don't say that because I am from the same town...
Cheers
Giovanni

 

[mundial]

i hope i will meet the guy in this summer
as i will make a full interview with him ( nut set yet )
its the 3rd time i plan to go to Italia:t but things changes my trip:head

as for trveling with the gun 2 of m friends went to buy the gun directly from
him & went back via air ' some are going spearfishing trips with heavier guns
it is not so heavy anyway as i took it for a good look:t
from what i have been reading the neew omer CAYMAN HF have good
points as one of the best guns for MID range manufacture
the tests shows that the gun have less triger tention then oder guns
almost 0 barel band effect
here U can read about it
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showpost.php?p=614227&postcount=17"]http://forums.deeperblue.net/showpost.php?p=614227&postcount=17[/ame]

the tread about the guns
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=68067"]http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=68067[/ame]
caro compagno io avere allo stesso problema :head

 

[sickbugs]

have you thought about getting a larger case for carrying your guns and rods? that way, you'd be able to fit in a wood gun, which does seem to be what would suit your needs the best.. double 20mm bands will probably give a nice kick back, a gun with a bit more density would help in that area

making a really nice case isnt that hard to do, i helped a friend make one to carry 4 fishing rods (2 9 foot spincasting, 2 7 foot trolling) and his 75 cm speargun, it was like a long briefcase, the reels he carried in a seperate bag

 

[spaghetti]

Olliric: con Top Sub sei in ottime mani: digli quello che ti serve e ti consiglieranno per il meglio. Una cosa interessante: da Top Sub l'anno scorso ho visto un fusto in legno con guida integrale che si può assemblare a impugnature "industriali" con innesto "femmina" (tipo il T20, che tra l'altro io apprezzo). Se non ricordo male costava anche poco e potrebbe fare al caso tuo (da quel che ho capito, l'impugnatura si assembla e disassembla con una semplice spina).
Gladiator: I'll send you a pm

 

[olliric]

When I travel I always carry a lot of gear so every gram I can save it's very important. I also dread the maintenance that wooden gun require. I am willing to sacrifice a bid of performance for convenience sake.
Cheers
Giovanni

 

[olliric]

Silvano e Luca have a lot of experience. I bet they will suggest the Cayman. On the paper it's the best for what I need. I am just worried about the noisy realease and quality assurance with Omer. In my experience their quality is below average and I am afraid that the Cayman being a new product will be full of problems.
Cheers
Giovanni

 

[spaghetti]

Why are you so unsatisfied by Omer? If you refer to the MB, it's an old model, very accurate but...old! (heavier and bulkier than the recent ones for materials and design). Know a thing? My buddy still uses his 10 years old MB 16/96 as his favourite gun and doesn't want to change. But that's him.
Me I've had problems only with the Omer Alluminum speargun (galvanic oxydation of handle and muzzle: rust all over), while the rest of my Omer gear is perfectly Ok for my needs (4 spearguns, 2 pairs of fins, 2 masks, torch, snorkel, gloves). But this is me, and even if I do trust Omer, I suggest you not to buy that brand of guns if you don't trust its reliability. It's for a psychological thing: for my experience, if you trust and love your gun, it will shoot better. But if you feel unsure about it, it will perform below its potential. (Se hai fiducia nel tuo fucile, sparerà bene anche se è un bidone. Se invece sei dubbioso e insicuro sulle sue qualità, sparerà male anche se è il migliore del mondo).

 

[olliric]

I think I'll have to take a chance with the Cayman or the Geronimo Pro. Nobody seem to have them yet. Next week I'll meet 2 Italian spearfishers who hopefully will know something about those guns.
The fact that the trigger tension of the Cayman is on the paper better than the Dapiran makes me feel a bit better about it.
We'll see
Cheers
Giovanni

i hope i will meet the guy in this summer
as i will make a full interview with him ( nut set yet )
its the 3rd time i plan to go to Italia:t but things changes my trip:head

as for trveling with the gun 2 of m friends went to buy the gun directly from
him & went back via air ' some are going spearfishing trips with heavier guns
it is not so heavy anyway as i took it for a good look:t
from what i have been reading the neew omer CAYMAN HF have good
points as one of the best guns for MID range manufacture
the tests shows that the gun have less triger tention then oder guns
almost 0 barel band effect
here U can read about it
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showpost.php?p=614227&postcount=17

the tread about the guns
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=68067
caro compagno io avere allo stesso problema :head

 

[olliric]

Maybe I have just been unlucky with 2 knives fins and spear gun. In the years of Omer MB there were better one around for the same price. I bought that one because looked strong. Wrong, it cracked on the handle were the pin goes through. It did not even have an automatic line release which I built and installed. It was also terribly noisy and shot low, the spears were very cheap.
It may be just bad luck though. I am probably willing to give it another chance, the last!
Cheers
Giovanni

Why are you so unsatisfied by Omer? If you refer to the MB, it's an old model, very accurate but...old! (heavier and bulkier than the recent ones for materials and design). Know a thing? My buddy still uses his 10 years old MB 16/96 as his favourite gun and doesn't want to change. But that's him.
Me I've had problems only with the Omer Alluminum speargun (galvanic oxydation of handle and muzzle: rust all over), while the rest of my Omer gear is perfectly Ok for my needs (4 spearguns, 2 pairs of fins, 2 masks, torch, snorkel, gloves). But this is me, and even if I do trust Omer, I suggest you not to buy that brand of guns if you don't trust its reliability. It's for a psychological thing: for my experience, if you trust and love your gun, it will shoot better. But if you feel unsure about it, it will perform below its potential. (Se hai fiducia nel tuo fucile, sparerà bene anche se è un bidone. Se invece sei dubbioso e insicuro sulle sue qualità, sparerà male anche se è il migliore del mondo).

 

[Fondueset]

I've got two pair of omer fins, mask and a 90cm cobra - all great. Went diving last june with others using a 90cm Master America (teak) T20 and excalibur. All very good and solid.

 

[olliric]

Thanks for the reassuring words. I am glad to hear that you have been happy with Omer gear, most people have. I believe the problem with Omer is that in the very laudable process of trying to always have many new products and very competitive prices they fall short in quality assurance/testing. Especially with all the stuff they get made in China. The 2 kniwes I got were a very nice design and possibly the best for me however the manufacture and material were poor. For the gun and fins the design was not that good but it was a long time ago. I am sure they have gone a long way.
Personally I would prefer if they would stick to fewer products and invest more time in the development.
The fact that there are many small companies in the field that regularly produce very small series of gear that is even better at a relatively small price difference tells an interesting story.
If I did not have a packing issue with wooden or monoscocca guns I could choose among many very good options. Unfortunately aluminum and plastic made guns require a bigger/industrial type set up than a small shop cannot deliver.
I hope the Cayman is performance wise a "serious" gun that can compare with the more expensive monoscocca. If it is so they will sell loads of them.
Cheers
Giovanni

I've got two pair of omer fins, mask and a 90cm cobra - all great. Went diving last june with others using a 90cm Master America (teak) T20 and excalibur. All very good and solid.

 

[Marwan]

i was testing my c4 mr carbon 104 last weekend, that was really impressive, light manouverable powerful, the trigger is what i was most impressed with, sooo smooth and sensitive, very quiet too.
the line release/rigging is still taking me some time though, its kind of like a riffe setup, 2 wraps and going over the shaft, i guess more practice will take care of that....
oliric, i have also omer carbonium 2000 in 100 length, its the gun i use the most, excellent, no problems...