Sport of Freediving

[joefox]

IAFD, AIDA, FREE....I read the word "sport" on many posts, but it seems to me that many freedivers don't know what sport is.

I love freediving and I'm interested in every event regardless the "flag", but....

if we talk about SPORT we talk about

This Stuff

Believe it or not, in this world there is a Sport Confederation that deals with freediving and is recognized by the International Olympic Committee. Its name is CMAS.
Everything else is out the world of sport: just think about the AIDA so called "World Championship".....who takes part to these competitions? Most of the times, people representing only themselves, not the Country they come from. Now it still can happen that a National Federation recognized by the Governement of its Country sends an official team (ie Italy at Ibiza), but I have reasons to think that this it's not going to last for a long time.

China will take part to the first CMAS World Championship in september, Russia is out just because they were suspended for internal problems. We're talking about countries with many finswimmers: China, for example, has 40.000 finswimmers. If 5% of them decided to try freediving we would have 2.000 freedivers.
CMAS has more than 110 national federations, it seems that in the first WC over 20 different nations will try the JB discipline.....then there will be the CMAS indoor WC, the Team WC...and finally the CMAS Games......

You know what? I have a dream.
I hope that these search result* will change one day.

Best,

Joefox

* search for "freediving", take a close look at the url.

 

[Cliff Etzel]

Hi Joe - So is there a CMAS affiliate here in the United States???

 

[joefox]

Yes, of course.

it's the IANT


A complete list of CMAS affiliated Federations can be found here

Joefox

 

[joefox]

One more thing: I don't know if IANT is affiliated for freediving (I only know they are affiliated and they deal with freediving).

Anyhow, info can be found in this document

Joefox

 

[jvoets]

I'd like to draw a parallel with Basketball.
It wasn't until 1992 that players of the NBA were allowed to participate in the Olympics. (Because NBA players were professionals)
Does that mean a NBA player wasn't a sportsman before 1992?
Just because he was with the wrong association according to Olympic ruleset? Don't think so .... they're the best of the world.

With the old Olympic mindset, someone like Tanya Streeter wouldn't have been allowed to participate, because she makes a living out of her sport.

I too find it a pity there are so many different organizations claiming World Records and stating they represent our sport, but that's a fact of the free world we are living in. You're allowed to make your own choices.

So I don't think being recognized by the IOC makes you the sole representer of freediving with the 'official' world records.
The man / woman that goes deepest / farthest is my world champion.

 

[joefox]

Records & Competitions

quote:
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So I don't think being recognized by the IOC makes you the sole representer of freediving with the 'official' world records.
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I didn't make myself clear: I'm talking about sport, not records (CMAS recognizes only constant weight, but if I'm not mistaken as a "scientific fact").

In other words, I'm talking about competitions, not record attempts. In the sport world records are important, but not everything. For example, most of you would know who's the F1 Champion, but not who reached the highest speed with a F1 car. I think that in the sport world, records represent the edge of an iceberg.

Anyway, I know that most freedivers just want to freedive and don't want to care about associations, confederations, homologations and all this stuff. I just want freediving to develope and grow, and I think that CMAS can give an important contribution. I respect AIDA and most of all I respect all feedivers, but I also believe in what CMAS is doing and hope to see my champions in CMAS competitions in the future.

Today there's too much confusion and sometimes who writes about freediving doesn't know how to explain certain situations to readers. For example, Tanya Streeter - in my opinion one of the best freedivers ever if not the best- recently set 35 mt in constant weight without fins. Same depth reached by a greek student in 1999......
There's more: Stepanek annouced an attempt in this discipline (30 meters): how can I explain the difference between this record and the 60 meters reached by Topi Lintukangas last year (with FREE)?

Joefox

 

[jvoets]

True,

that makes it very confusing for outsiders.
I think what CMAS is doing is a good start anyway.

Who knows, some day we will see freediving on the Olympics. We could opt for the Winter Games and have some records broken under the ice

 

[joefox]

 

[fabrice]

Are you serious when you say that CMAS is making a good start in freediving comps ?
They are organising the most stupid and dangerous event you can think of !
Reminder : the CMAS comp in sept 2003 will consist of a cube : go down at 15m, and then do a dynamic apnea along a 15m x 15m square. Happy blackouts !

Fabrice

 

[joefox]

I've seen it, and you?

1) JB isn't dangerous for athletes, who are constantly operating within 15 meters. How can you tell it's more dangerous than a deep dive? I don't want to sound rude, but this is nonsense.

2) JB isn't dangerous for safety divers (!!!!!!!!!!!)

3) JB is cheap, every nation can afford a competition of this kind

4) JB lets freedivers TRAIN SAFELY - I REPEAT: TRAIN SAFELY

5) I think you should judge this discipline after the World Championship.

In Italy we had the first competition, our italian champions Giuliano Marchi (Trento 29/06, Italian Championship, 7':15'' static ) and Monica Barbero (Trento 29/06 143 meters dynamic) said it was fun and liked it. Maybe you should try it.

Joefox

 

[fabrice]

I'm not convinced at all...
1) Of course deep dives are dangerous. But dynamic at 15m is also dangerous. If it is a dynamic comp, let's do it in *really* shallow water.
2) Heck. This really sounds like "since we're not able to provide deep safety, we'll have a crappy comp in 15m".
3) & 4) True, but who will be interested in this ?

5) I really think that a perfectly valid CMAS comp would have been a dynamic & static comp if CMAS doesn't want (or can't) to face security issues related to deep dives. But why promote this ? Why not work with people that have a lot of experience with comps ?

By the way, can you tell me how many accidents have occured during AIDA/Free/... "deep" comps ?

JB could be fun, but it's not relevant to show your freediving skills IMHO.

Fabrice

 

[joefox]

Fabrice, how many dynamics at 15 meters have you tried?

How many constant weight comps are organized out there? How many freedivers can win? How much money do you need to organize a constant weight comp?
Answer these questions and you'll understand why CMAS proposed this discipline.

How can you say no one is interested in safe training?
Safe training is a MUST, in my humble opinion. At least, it's a must if we want to promote Freediving and not only a few freedivers.


I guess the only reason why some freedivers hate JB without knowing it... can be this one:

"Why not work with people that have a lot of experience with comps ?"

This might be the *real* point.
The funny thing is that I'm sure you don't know that CMAS observers where on the spot at AIDA comps since the 1st WC in Sardinia organized by Umberto. Plus, CMAS comps represent an additional opportunity, not the alternative. I think you should try...everyone should try JB, at least one time in their life.

Joefox

PS Giuliano and Monica won the JB comp, and after two weeks won the Italian championship (static, dynamic and constant weight): was it a lucky combination?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

The cube

When first I heard about the cube, I honestly shook my head. I have tried very hard to be open for the idea, but in the end I still sit with the impression that the thinkers behind it are 1) either completely unaware about the development freediving has seen the last decade or 2) have created a competition form based on enthusiastic experiences from spearfishing (which the cube resembles in athletic approach). In my opinion, the concept still misses the mark and I'll tell you why:

The IOC's main slogan is the old latin phrase Citius, Altius, Fortius (faster, higher, stronger). The concept of all olympic sport, which Joe Fox talks about, is to continually take the human body further and further, like it was in ancient Greece 2500 years ago. In freediving, this means going as deep as you can. Yes, that is sport at its finest. If you really have to compete (and that's just how we humans are) about who is the best breath hold diver, then the key element will always be about who can go the deepest in open water. The need for knowing is there, the curiosity and fascination for knowing is there. Just like the need to know who can run the fastest 100 meters is there and always will be.

Imagine this situation:
The board of the IAAF (track & field) comes up to Sergej Bubka, chairman of IOC's athletic commision & master pole jumber in his days, and says:

"We have a new idea, we've worked on it for three months and we think it's great. From now on, you can only jump 10 feet with that pole of yours, but when you pass the 10 feet, you have to fly through as many 3-feet-diameter rings as possible before you land on the canvas. What'ya think?"

Sergej would just look at them and say:
"What the hell have you guys been drinking?"

See what I mean? That's what CMAS is trying to do with the cube. And the freedivers are just putting their finger to the side of their head, like the pole jumpers would. Sure they can do the cube, and sure Sergej can do the 'how far can I swing myself', but what the hell for? It does not favor the main element in freediving or pole jumping. It takes away the basics: How deep can you go? That's what freedivers want to do, that's what they'll always want to do. Yes, it involves risks, and yes, there are problems organizing a competition, but that's the game of freediving. CMAS can cry all she wants but she can't do anything about it, none of us can.

I'm sure CMAS means it well with the cube, but really, stop wasting our time. The cube is a looser's project. It is in its concept, useless. I hear some people wonder if CMAS are desperately trying to outcompete the forces of apnea, because they have managed to create something durable on their own without CMAS. If it's just good oldfashioned envy, perhaps pig-eyed arrogance and pride that prevents CMAS from accepting the developed competition models for modern freediving, then the leaders of CMAS are not very professional. But that's not an image I have in general about CMAS, so I prefer to believe they are just plain ignorant about a lot of things.

I'd really prefer freediving back where it belongs, with CMAS. This business of operating in different offices is ridiculous. But as long as CMAS keeps eating their feet like this, then we're sadly better off without her.

Or what? Joe Fox, as representation from CMAS, are you guys ready to wake up?

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

 

[Erik]

Originally posted by joefox
. Maybe you should try it.

Joefox

I think it might be fun. Good luck Joe,
Erik Y.

 

[joefox]

Maybe you're right. I must be unaware of the developing of freediving and yes, freediving is an extreme sport, not for anyone but only for "who can afford it".
No freediving in the schools, no young guys playing the extreme game, no poor countries involved in it: if you wanna play, you gotta pay and be a daredevil.

Perhaps that's why there are a few freedivers and a few sponsors for competitions. Actually, I don't see this "development freediving has seen the last decade". I really would like to see it, but I don't. Look at the international competitions: a few superfreedivers and many tourists, a WC canceled. World Records....am I the only one asking himself what's the meaning of a record like Pedersen's?

How many *athletes* involved in freediving are there in the world? Please, put in number the developement of freediving, I'd like to understand.


CEngelbrecht:

I'm not related in any way with CMAS, I'm a journalist and the director of an online magazine.
Who doesn't want to play the cube can just ignore it, it's their rights, but I heard rumors of more than 20 countries involved in the first edition of the CMAS WC and I look forward to seeing what happens, trying to keep an open mind and trying to see what they do. I like the democracy of CMAS, which you seems to ignore. Every decision in CMAS is taken by the National Federations, when you say "they" you're actually referring to National Federation representing their country.

If I were a "representation from CMAS" I wouldn't be here and posting and I wouldn't publish news and interviews regarding AIDA, IAFD or FREE athletes, which I do.

I don't represent anyone else but myself, and you?

Joefox

 

[CEngelbrecht]

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Maybe you're right. I must be unaware of the developing of freediving and yes, freediving is an extreme sport, not for anyone but only for "who can afford it".
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Ok, now we're getting somewhere. This is where I think you misunderstood a lot of things. Sled diving is expensive and only for the superrich, but sled diving is not a competitive event, it's a record event. The competition focus is on the constant weight, and it's easy for everyone to get an buoy and some rope and a weight and go training with a buddy.


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No freediving in the schools, no young guys playing the extreme game, no poor countries involved in it: if you wanna play, you gotta pay and be a daredevil.
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Bob sled is an olympic event. It demands equipment much more expensive than the freediving suit and fins. Still bob sled has its own rights, that's why it's in the olympics, and so does freediving. But in how many schools do they play bob sled?
And besides, you don't have to be a daredevil like Pipin the Nut in order to train freediving. Not really. No more than a bob sleder, at least.


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Actually, I don't see this "development freediving has seen the last decade". I really would like to see it, but I don't. Look at the international competitions: a few superfreedivers and many tourists, a WC canceled. World Records....am I the only one asking himself what's the meaning of a record like Pedersen's?
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The dynamic evolved as a training event and turned into a competition event, mainly because it's a lot easier organising pool events than open water events. Most apnea competitions today are pool competitions, mainly because of the lack of world budget. When freediving has like bob sled's budget, then we'll see a lot more (safe, mind you) open water events.
And your term 'superfreedivers'....those guys started out just like you and me, they had a talent they trained and suddenly they took off. They are not superheroes, people like Herbert Nitsch or Martin Stepanek or Tanya Streeter isn't, and neither is a guy like Sergej Bubka, to use him again. They're just athletes.


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How many *athletes* involved in freediving are there in the world? Please, put in number the developement of freediving, I'd like to understand.
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I work voluntary for AIDA managing the official ranking lists. I have attached the lists from 2002 to this post (in .xls). From this you can see that in 2002, 202 male and 46 female individual freedivers had an attempt logged in constant weight, in 2003 so far it's 105/34. In static the number is much higher, for 2002 353/91, for 2003 262/70 so far. In dynamic it's for 2002 276/75, for 2003 235/57 so far. These are the main events attracting most competitors. Everybody wants to compete in constant weight, but usually settles with pool events until the national federation has the funding to do the constant weight.
Taken from static, this means that some 450 freedivers (at least) were active in competitions worldwide last year. Don't know if that's impressive, but there are your numbers.


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Who doesn't want to play the cube can just ignore it, it's their rights, but I heard rumors of more than 20 countries involved in the first edition of the CMAS WC and I look forward to seeing what happens, trying to keep an open mind and trying to see what they do.
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I mean what I say, it's a looser's project, freedivers participating don't get my respect or the respect of the additional community. It's a precious waste of freediving's time.


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I like the democracy of CMAS, which you seems to ignore. Every decision in CMAS is taken by the National Federations, when you say "they" you're actually referring to National Federation representing their country.
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This is again a piece of ignorance about the freedivers, of course we have democracy. The AIDA assembly sees one member (and one observer) from each member nation, and they vote on each changing issue, update on regulations, new principles, etc. Exactly like the CMAS system, I'm sure, and as I understand AIDA was in '92 copied from the CMAS system. The only thing parting AIDA and CMAS is the fact that CMAS doesn't want to do the constant weight, which the freedivers want.
IAFD is different. I don't think they know what sports democracy is. But don't take IAFD as a general image of the freediving nation. Pleeeease don't!!!


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I don't represent anyone else but myself, and you?
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In this debate just myself. It's important to keep your head beyond your pack, also because we need to unite efforts one of these days, CMAS, AIDA, IAFD, FREE and all.

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

You can check info at:
www.aida-international.org
AIDA ranking lists currently hosted at:
www.freedive.nu

 

[CEngelbrecht]

AIDA ranking list 2003

Ah, what the hell, I'll give you the ranking lists for 2003, too. The format was vastly altered this January, so...

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

 

[ivan]

hi

Mate do you have a link to the 2003 world static rankings.

cheers

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Static ranking

It's in the .xls file in the post above 'AIDA ranking list 2003.xls'

 

[joefox]

Chris, thank you for the datas, I really appreciate that.

A few comments:

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it's easy for everyone to get an buoy and some rope and a weight and go training with a buddy
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In your opinion, with 10.000 people training with "some rope and a weight" and a buddy at 40-100 meters how many incidents would we have each year? I love freediving, but I wouldn't let my children do that. Would you blame me?

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And your term 'superfreedivers'....those guys started out just like you and me, they had a talent they trained and suddenly they took off. They are not superheroes, people like Herbert Nitsch or Martin Stepanek or Tanya Streeter isn't, and neither is a guy like Sergej Bubka, to use him again. They're just athletes.
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Sorry Chris, I had a close look at AIDA comps results in the last years and what I see is a few *athletes* and many *tourists*. If this is what you call "developement" of Freediving, we just have different opinions.

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I mean what I say, it's a looser's project, freedivers participating don't get my respect or the respect of the additional community. It's a precious waste of freediving's time.
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I'm really sorry to read that. This discipline doesn't waste anyone's time because no one is forced to practice it. Disrespect for freedivers who love freediving exactly as me and you but have different approach to this sport (from you) and want to try the Cube is unacceptable, rude and completely inconcievable to me.

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Taken from static, this means that some 450 freedivers (at least) were active in competitions worldwide last year. Don't know if that's impressive, but there are your numbers.
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No, it's not impressive. Not at all. It's - forgive me - totally discouraging.
In Italy there were 120 athletes in the second year of national FIPSAS competitions + we have Apnea Academy which is doing good (most of italian freedivers compete in both federal and AA comps). Please, have a look at my previous post....40.000 finswimmers in China.....
I do appreciate what AIDA is doing and I respect people who work to develop freediving, but I reckon that this it's not enough. We have 800 spearfishers in our national competitions.....

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we need to unite efforts one of these days, CMAS, AIDA, IAFD, FREE and all.
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I agree, but showing disrespect for who has different ideas on the best way to promote freediving it's not a good beginning, in my opinion.

Freediving appears as a little world with no memory and too many feuds bravely defended by their militancy. I don't see any good in this situation.
Let's cross the fingers and see what happens!

Joefox