Static Apnea Crisis

[jpelorat]

Hi everybody,

I've been training 5 days a week during the last 2 months to improve my general apnea skills. Every morning I do dry static apnea training, lung stretching, kapalabhati and almost every thing I was taught to do. Every afternoon I go to the pool to do some dynamic training too, 400 mts of swimming, 800 mts fin swimming, 10x40mts dynamic, 5x60mts dynamic and 400mts swimming to chill out.

During the las 2 weeks my dry static apnea time has got bloked around 3:52 and I'm getting frustrated. I'm sure the reasons are more psychological than physical.

Just after 20 seconds I'm starting to feel an uncomfortable stress within my throat, my hart rate can't slow down and I can't focus on any thing different than that.

So, any advice to overcome this crisis.

Ah!!! my best personal dry was 5:15 about 6 months ago.

Thanks,
Sigi...

 

[donmoore]

Sounds to me like you have over trained and your O2 tissue saturation had not had time to recover. I use a pulse/oximeter and I have learned that if I over train the results are terrible. Kirk Krack told me that the cellular recovery of long apnea sessions is very similar to running a marathon. Would you ever see a person run a marathon and then do another one the next day? The main limiting factor in output of hard cardio is the body’s ability to restore the O2% and elimination the CO2. A lot of bicycle racers now will do some training with a portable pulse/oximeter so they can see how low they are taking their SaO2%. Seems like I remember that they can maintain a certain level of output for sometime if the SaO2% is in the mid 90’s, but when their done, their bodies need time to recovery.

It’s very easy for me to see when I have over trained in apnea or even cardio. The pulse/oximeter reading will usually be 100 or 99 at a rest, but when I have over trained it will be 97 to 94. If I do a breath hold it falls much faster than normal.

Eric Fattah has said it several times, but a pulse/oximeter is well worth the investment if you want to take training seriously. The finger models are quick and easy, but there is a lag in SaO2%, especially as you get longer into a dry static, from vascular constrictions of the blood vessels in the finger. But it does give you a much better idea what is going on than nothing and I believe, as Eric has stated, it will give you the final SaO2% if you keep watching it after the breathold is finished. It may take 20 seconds, because of the constriction, but the blood in the arteries do not lose their SaO2 concentrations so when the blood finally reaches the finger, it was your lowest SaO2% for the hold.

The pulse rate though is real-time and can be very useful from before the hold all the way through. Ear clip or forehead adhesive attachments don’t have as much of lag in SaO2% (but they cost a lot more). But a day when you have a good lag on the finger is actually a good day, because it means good vascular constriction, which is one state of an efficient apnea mode.

My static numbers are not great at 6:10 being my dry static record, but my lungs are small. Last year my FEV was about 5 liters and this year I have only been getting 4 so in reality I do pretty good for what I have to work with. But I don’t know why my lung volume is decreasing? If I only had lungs like the guys mentioned in the “8:52 STA personal best experience” thread!

Bottom line, I think you over trained and I think you should get a pulse/oximeter to get the best results for the effort you are putting into it.
don

 

[jpelorat]

Don,

Sounds to me like you have over trained and your O2 tissue saturation had not had time to recover.

If it is so, how long should i wait to get my tissue fully recovered? and what kind of training is good to help the recovery process?

Bottom line, I think you over trained and I think you should get a pulse/oximeter to get the best results for the effort you are putting into it.
don

If you check this: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=oximeter&btnG=Search+Froogle you'll see that the oximeters are pretty expensive, by now they are out of my budget and I'd rather to buy a Suunto D3. So what else can i do to determine if I'm over trained?

Thanks,
Again Me.....

 

[immerlustig]

hi,

if you haven't already then maybe check google for 'specificity principle' or 'training principles' for some general training ideas. also worth a look is stuff on 'recovery based training'. those would be my personal 2 training favourites.

for example: during 2 months of static training in winter i did 1 static session every 3 days (1 warm-up and 1 max). i didn't level off but continued to progress until the end. i stopped then because i moved somewhere else with not so nice training conditions and no buddy.

and i agree with don's ideas on o2 meters. seb murat was here for a week now and we did quite some measuring (and diving, of course ) very interesting indeed. oh, and a very cool quote of the man himself "perfect training makes perfect".

regards,

roland

 

[donmoore]

Sigi,
I don’t really know. I am very sold on the pulse/oximeter, because I have gained so much knowledge from it that I don’t think I would have received from anywhere else. It's hard to say when you past the edge. There are days when I thought I felt great and I was going to have some good dry statics only to find out I had gone over the edge.

For me, five days of apnea training takes me right to the edge. Infact to do 5 days I have to cut back on the reps. In dry static I either do no warm-ups or only one now because it allows me to train more days.

It’s also been very useful in understanding that pain is not that related to SaO2%. Like Eric said a few weeks ago, if your using a one you will see that a painful day might actually be a better day. Pain usually means CO2 so when I have high SaO2% and more pain than I can bear, then what works for me is walking dynamic apnea. One good session of walking dynamic apnea taken to several hard contractions is enough to make a noticeable improvement in CO2 tolerance the next day. But I don’t know anyway you would know for sure your problem is O2 or CO2 without an oximeter.

Your right an inexpensive finger oximeter is about the same price as a D3. Both are worthwhile tools. But the D3 will probably break within the first two years of warranty so make sure you buy it from a U.S. dealer so the U.S. repair place will repair it. They won’t repair the ones from the db’s Store, which is scubastore.com in Spain.
don

 

[tylerz]

Sounds to me like you are experiencing the effects of over-packing...? Are you packing for your static? Depending on various factors, somedays one can pack the same amount but no longer be able to hold the packed air back from entering the mouth, and even letting it do so, it still strains the back of the throat. Or you can hold it back but their is constant pain due the struggle. Not that everybody experiences this, but I certainly do as well. This almost certainly degrades my performance.

Until you reach around 6 minutes regularly, I would not even bother packing while doing a static. It induces more stress opposing relaxation. Of course if all you are concerned with is a max time on a given day, you will have a hard time fighting the idea of losing precious air and feel the desire to pack. But if your aim, is overall progress, then forget about it.

As an experiment one day I decided to see how far I could go without packing, which I had not done since times when I did 5:30-6:00. I ended up with a 7:25, while my max was 8:07 at the time.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[jpelorat]

Hi Tyler,

Sounds to me like you are experiencing the effects of over-packing...? Are you packing for your static?

I really don't like packing at all, indeed, i've just tried it on Constant Weight, i think it just has sence on depth diving. But what you wrote, makes me think about the chance of been over inhaling. Right now i don't have a clue on how is my lung volume, but maybe i'm pushing a little harder. Do you think it is possible without packing?.

Sigi...

 

[tylerz]

Yes, it is possible and likely. Up until about 6:00 I used to only inhale 3/4 of full. You may wish to work on flexibility to alleviate this. The intensity of your training could have exhausted the muscles involved and strained others, leaving you suceptible to this. Otherwise maybe you have done some other activity that could have caused your muscles to go tense. Even a lack of activity can cause the muscles to become rigid.

Try some 3/4 inhalation statics and that will tell you if it is the muscles that are the problem. Watch to see if you become more relaxed and your heart rate feels less intense. Your throat should not become sore. If this is the case, then gradually work up from there, adding some stretching into the mix, and definately I think 5 days a week is too much, especially as you get into longer breath holds and without a thorough approach to nutrition.

Cheers,

Tyler