Static - more breath up questions

[samdive]

another Static question (guess what I am training for at the moment!)

I've recently made some big jumps in my breath hold time by using some carefully managed hyperventilation. However this seems to be helping less and less, ie I am needing to hyperventilate harder, faster and for longer each time to get the same effect. I have worked out a certain state of what I would call "tingliness" that makes my time and comfort just what I want - but to get there I am breathing harder and faster each time I train.... Is that normal? anything I can do to NOT have to do that, I'd rather hyperventilate as little as I can get away with.

Also - any ideas on perfect breath up/recovery times in between holds? at the moment I am working on 3mins, 4 mins and 5 mins between each of my three holds when I'm trying for a max - any more than that and I lose my focus but maybe I should be trying to concentrate for longer!

 

[DeepThought]

I don't know how to answer your question Sam but I'm adding another one.

I've been suspecting for some while that the body has some "training" reaction to hyperventilation, maybe something to do with blood buffers, anyone has info on that?

 

[Hollander]

Hi you guys/girls,

I have no scientific info for you but I do have the same experiences. The more often I use hyperventilation before my breathholds, the less I get that tingeling feeling. With my first breathup I still feel it but it gets less and less after every breath up.

However, I don't have the feeling by breathhold times are decreasing. If I don't get the tingeling feeling, i don't mind, I just keep on doing the same breath-up and my breathholds are still increasing.

After my preparation for a big one I always first try a negative. breathh. If I can do a neg. for 2 minutes I know I'm ready for a max. I don't need the tingeling feeling to tell me this. I than do an additional breathup of 3 min and go for it. It got me to 4:45 so far and Im pretty satified with that (I'm only practicing since april).

Next saturday I have my first competion for static so I hope I put my practicing to my use and make a 5:00 min.

 

[jome]

Do you have breaks between the static days or are you doing them in a row? I get this effect when I do static several days in a row. I've always thought that all the crap from holding your breath simply accumulates and you are more acidic to start with - which means earlier and tougher contractions.

The effect fades after resting at least a few days.

Breathup and preparation remaining the same, There can sometimes be up to a minute of difference in first contraction and I have logged enough statics to see a pattern, that the longer the training period, the earlier the contractions.

However, I find that even though the contractions come early and are more frequent, I have more tolerance to them. So far the best explanation I've found is that bicarbonate is accumuluating in my blood, giving me a better buffer to withstand the changes in blood ph. For me personally, there is definately a "peak", where the effect of withstanding more contractions is strong and the start of contractions is still relatively late, giving me the optimum conditions for a pb. But if I keep training without breaks I go past the peak into being able to withstand more contractions, but they still start too early to make a maximum performance. For me the "peak" seems to come on the third or fourth day of successive static training...

I haven't found that hyperventilation as such has a "training effect", but doing lot's of statics for days in a row will result in a bigger need to hyperventilate, if you want to delay the breathing reflex the same as the day before.

Here's an example how it could go (dry statics):
Day 1: 1st contraction 5:15, 30 contractions, total time 6:45
Day 2: 1st 4:45, 55 contractions, total time 7:00
Day 3: 1st 4:30, 70 contractions, total time 7:30
Day 4: 1st 4:00, 75 contractions, total time 7:00
Day 5: 1st 3:45, 75 contactions, total time 6:50

After that I'd have to rest anyway, since my body would be crapping out and I'd be an insomniac zombie...

The optimum recovery time for me after the last warmup is about 4-5 minutes...

 

[samdive]

Thanks Simo. I have been trying to do them everyday, maybe I need a break! it does make me totally exhausted (mainly because they only time of day I have enough quiet to do this is about 6am!)

is there anything I can eat/not eat to influence bicarb levels? (given that I have 4 more days to the comp!). Hollander - see you there - and hopefully do about the same time, I assume you are also going to Budapest!!

S

 

[jome]

My recommendation would be to take a few days rest now and then train again on days D-2 and D-1. That's how I would try to do it. But of course, everyone is different...

But definately get at least a day or two of complete rest before the comp if you have been training daily.

You could try the 5 lemons thing, but I think we've already covered that

 

[naiad]

I have been trying to do them everyday, maybe I need a break!

I find it better not to train everyday. It doesn't seem to have any bad effects, except that my apnea performance starts to go downhill.

Lucia

 

[larsemil]

most of the big guys dont do any warmup breathholds.. wich i think is the best way to do it. then the body doesnt get tired from the warmups. AND i have been thinking about not hyperventilating at all - gives u a better diveresponse, a lot harder breathhold and you will not get lmc as easy.

 

[samdive]

I used to do it without any hyperventilation at all - but it has helped me a lot so I am tempted to continue!!

no warm ups is also tempting as my first hold is getting longer and longer, with less and less difference between that and the subsequent holds

 

[Walrus]

Hi Bam Bam,
I think you are missing the point a little. Hyperventilating, specially for static is very common for people that compete in freediving. The reason why hyperventilation in considered a "no no" in conventional diving is it's easier to push closer to your limit. So specially for someone solo diving in the ocean it increases the chance for them to push to BO. Even more so for someone new to diving that doesn't know their limits.

If you are doing DRY statics or statics that are closely supervised what does it matter if you hyperventilate or not ?
If you do or don't people are still able to push themselves to the limit so really makes no difference. Everyone has genetic differences and there is no universal technique that will suit everyone, so each to his/her own technique.

The single max static that Tom does I have no doubt it is good training, but also convinced that it's not suitable for everyone as far as max perfomance is concerned. For starters it is only useful for someone at an advanced level able to already push to their limit, because it is much harder to do. It would also be more suitable for someone with very good natural CO2 tolerance. For someone like me I don't think it will work as well as I get a LOT of contractions. Strong contractions themselves also burnup O2 and can loose you time. I have had very good results with 1 warmup and then a max. The 1st warmup does make the contractions come later for the max, but still gives some benefits of the "no warmup" aproach.

As for the greats, Herbert who does not have great CO2 tolerance would often use a LOT of hyperventilating, he has done statics of 8.30+ that way.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[Walrus]

Just to add also.
Here in Australia there is the common attitude particularly around people that spearfish of "Don't hyperventilate because it is dangerous". It is mentioned a lot in articles on safety in books, magazines etc. At the same time nothing is mentioned on what to do if someone actually blacks out. Worse still it is also perfectly ok for people to go off and dive Solo. At least in New Zealand they have the right idea and have been enforcing buddy teams in spearing comps for some time now.
I would personally much rather that people use moderate hyperventilation and dive with buddies trained in BO recovery, then diving Solo and using "No" hyperventilation.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[jome]

The big no no should be "don't hyperventilate too much". Almost every diver hyperventilates. They just have different names for it such as "breathups", "diaphragmatic breathing" etc... It's the amount that makes the difference.

The reason we tell newbies simply "don't hyperventilate" is, that they have not yet gained enough background knowledge to understand the subtleties of ventilation and preparation. They cannot differetiate between aggressive hyperventilation and a "normal breathup". In due time, if they research things enough, they will come to know the "truth", by which time they should be responsible enough to know the difference.

A few deep diaphragm breaths before a dive is hyperventilation. 2 minutes of diaphragm breathing (in the form most divers choose to use it) is definately hyperventilation! The reason people call it diaphragmatic breathing is so they could convince them selves (and their students who watch their every move and who they told not to hyperventilate) they are not hyperventilating.

Anything more than unconcious, neutral breathing is hyperventilation. Doing that conciously is next to impossible...The volume of such breath is about 500ml and it is very slow in frequency.

Preparing a good "breathup" (which is in essence finding by trial and error the amount you can hyperventilate safely) has many benefits. You can tolerate the breathing reflex longer and you start with more (not much, but little) oxygen. It's all about balance, and the right amount is not the most comfortable. There is (in my opinnion) such a thing as too much co2 to start with. You must find the optimum, which makes the breath hold tolerable, but uncomfortable enough to get a good apnea reflex and bohr effect, while staying clear of getting unbearable breathing reflex or eventually co2 narcosis and acidosis (granted, acidocis is not very likely to happen).

The tempting part is that beginners, who are mainly limited by the willpower to hold their breath, may find it tempting to hyperventilate very aggressively, which more or less eliminates the breathing reflex before bo. Now that's the part that is dangerous and a big "no no" and in fact what most trainers are talking about when they say "don't hyperventilate".

I think what Sam is talking about is what most would just call ventilation, without the hyper. It's a bit confusing, because there is no clear defination how much you can breath before it comes hyperventilation. In my mind, when I use the term in everyday speech, hyperventilation=aggressive hyperventilation, huffin and puffing for a minute or more. Ventilation=slight hyperventilation, relaxed, deep diaphragmatic breathing for a few minutes before static.

Also remember that the effect is almost identical if you do slightly elevated ventilation for a long period as it is to aggressively hyperventilate for a short period.

It all comes down to knowing your body, knowing your limits and capabilities. It's safest to say to someone, who is still on the journey to discover their limits to preferably ventilate too little rather than too much. But an expert, experienced static diver pretty accurately knows just how much breathing is good. This he has found through tedious experimenting and trial and error.

About no warmups...True Tom Sietas is the king and he does it that way, but not all "greats" use no warmup. I'm not sure about Sam Still, but at least the no 2 at the AIDA worlds does a very "traditional" static, warmups and all, and his personal best is 8:36. Ok, that's not 10 minutes, but for most, something to look up to.

 

[Hollander]

Hollander - see you there - and hopefully do about the same time, I assume you are also going to Budapest!!

S[/QUOTE]

He samdive,

Unfortunatly my competition is in the Netherlands. But I wish you good luck with your competition.

 

[samdive]

Walrus and Jome - I agree with you guys. If you read my first post it refers to "carefully managed hyperventilation" - not that mad huffin and puffin people were having me do when I first started freediving. Back in those days I was known as sammy samba so I abandoned all forms of hyperventilation preferring to sit quiet and "just breathe" which was obviously only got me so far.... have had a bit of coaching recently from Lotta and Bill who both advocate the kind of "hyperventilation" you two refer to - a couple of minutes of very deep slow breathing followed by a final minute of faster - 2 secs in 2 secs out - very full forceful breathing which I think the Canadians call "purging".

I still wouldn't teach a beginner to do it as they clearly need to learn their limits first but I would certainly advocate it to the more experienced athletes I coach. And no, I wouldn't do it for any deep disciplines.

To say it is hypocritical - well I also tell my beginners not to dive below 20m but I do that myself - as you get more experienced, techniques will change. I don't believe that is hypocritical. Besides I don't tell my students that hyperventilation is a "Big No No" - I explain that some freedivers use it for pool disciplines but that is not advisable until you are fairly experienced and have learnt your limits well.

 

[jome]

The end part sounds a bit aggressive for my taste, but if it works, then go ahead.

A good rule of thumb is:
-If your static is limited by hitting regularly samba or even bo, and worse yet, it always comes as a surprise, you need to hyperventilate much less.
-If you static is limited by simply having a huge urge to breathe, but you've never been even close to samba, you may try a little more ventilation. The primary and preferred method would of course be to learn to tolerate it further...But you may try experimenting with ventilating slightly more.

It's like an iterative tuning algorithm. You see what works and make small adjustments

One thing I recently became aware of. When nervous, people tend to subconciously hyperventilate slightly. So in a competition, most people (like my self) are nervous enough the be continuosly hyperventilating very slightly. I believe that is one reason why a lot of people hit sambas in competition. They are already alkaline and they do their normal breathup on top of that. In competition, most would want to slightly tone down their bu. Instead most tone it up slightly "just to make sure at least I won't crap out because of lack of willpower" and this leads to disaster...

 

[samdive]

Thanks Simo - I will try not to get nervous! my static is limited by d*** painful contractions and not being bothered to fight them anymore so I guess I am still not hyperventilating too much!

 

[perow1]

What difference do you all notice in dry vs wet breath holding? Due to lack of pool times and since it is more time efficient most of my breath holding exercises are done dry. I have noticed that my pool times are shorter than on land. Maybee the dry breath holds are easier by nature, but how much easier for you? Or is it just me beeing more adjusted to what i train most of the times?

 

[jome]

perow1, for the same reasons as you I used to train mostly dry.

At first, the difference was quite huge, but this was mostly psychological. I simply got more scared towards the end of the static, the really uncomfortable phase, when in water. I could not push as far as I could in dry. Back then the difference was up to a minute or even more.

By emphazising wet statics, I managed to narrow the gap somewhat so that a really good dry static and a really good wet static are within 20-30 seconds of each other. But my dry pb still remains 40 sec better than wet.

I believe that there are physiological reasons as well. Mainly that on dry, especially if not using a nose clip, you may unconciously take "micro breaths" during contractions (especially if you let the air move back and forward in you mouth, like I like to do). A small, but perhaps not totally insignificant effect maybe oxygen simply diffusing if you have your airways open at any point, even if you don't inhale/exhale. This would not account for a huge difference, but certainly 10-20 seconds here or there...To best "simulate" wet conditions, I always use a noseclip on dry statics.

Some difference may also come from the position. I do dry statics laying on my back and I think in this position I'm able to pack more and keep more air in. When I turn to my stomach on wet static, I will get very uncomfortable if I pack a similar amount and either have to pack less or let some air out...

I read somewhere that oxygen wise, a human could go for a really long time with "diffuse breathing", meaning that airways are open, but air is not moving in or out of the lungs. The problem quickly becomes co2, which is not removed from the lungs. For that reason the lung function is not usually stopped for more than 4 minutes (if my memory serves me correct) for example in surgery...

Some have speculated that oxygen transfer may occur through the skin also, which obviously would be hampered by water/wetsuit. I'm not so convinced my self, but perhaps...Who knows. This would be easy to counter by using a dry suit for statics

 

[perow1]

Thanks!
I think lying on my back is one of the main differences. It is much more easy to relax lying on the back and easier to hold in more air. Ofcourse one should wear a noseclip or a mask to eliminate air diffusion and microbreaths, but for me that is not all. Diffusion through the skin must be just a minimal maybe onnoticable factor, but i do not know. Shouldn´t oxygen be able to diffuse from the water aswell or is the levels in the water so low that oxygen might just as well diffuse the other way, from your oxygenated body to the water? If it is possible to diffuse from the water would´nt it be more beneficial to have no suit at all? (given a pool warm enough). The suit may just "suffacate" your skin. Or maybe the neoprene is holding air available for diffusion.

As for your "peak" jome, i have noticed something similar. I reach a peak where contractions come earlier but i am more fit to fight them. This peak for me is somewhere between 4-5 days aswell, after that i simply get exhausted from much training.

 

[naiad]

I've recently made some big jumps in my breath hold time by using some carefully managed hyperventilation.

Also - any ideas on perfect breath up/recovery times in between holds? at the moment I am working on 3mins, 4 mins and 5 mins between each of my three holds when I'm trying for a max - any more than that and I lose my focus but maybe I should be trying to concentrate for longer!

Over the time that I have been training, I have got used to hyperventilation, and now I can do a lot of it with no problems. However, too much can make my times shorter, so I keep to reasonable limits.

I know that hyperventilation is a controversial subject, but I agree with jome that almost all of us do it in one form or another. I would not do any sort of hyperventilation if I am alone in the water.

I find that my perfect recovery time is 4-5 minutes. More than this and the effect of the warmups is mostly lost. This means that I can never do a max static in the pool, because there is always more time in between holds.

Lucia