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Static with no warm-up

Discussion in 'Freediving Training & Techniques' started by derelictp, Oct 10, 2004.

  1. derelictp

    derelictp Freediver

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    Hi

    I have tried many times on land doing a max static without warm up breathholds. I can ventilate harder without getting hypocapnic symptoms it seems. The contractions comes earlier but they are not as ugly as they are when I have done warm up statics.

    Today for the first time, I did a "max" in water to see if I can do a something good. I layed in the water relaxed for 2min then I did my ususal breathup but a little more aggressive to compensate for a less alkaline body. I did a few short pack stretches and complete breaths during breathup.

    I had a countdown from 6min.

    The contractions came at 4min and was not hard. At 5min the contraction-rate was 40/min but it was still not painful and I did not have any hypoxic symptoms (feeling ugly) like I normally get around 5'20''-5'45''. I got up at 5'32'' because of very high contraction-rate 60/min, but I felt fresh. I could have pushed much harder without problems I belive.

    That is 36 sec from my pb... and I have not trained static for very long time. Maybe we dont need the warm ups to perform, or can we perform BETTER without warmups.

    If I read the thread "CO2 compartment hypothesis" I belive that ,when doing no warm up statics, the body water will not be as alkaline as with warm-ups. The blood ph will probably, due to more aggressive breathing, maybe be more alkaline.

    The spleen will probably not release as much red bloodcells as if I use warm ups...

    Opinions? Have I got Erics theory right?

    Have somebody tried without warm ups and made BETTER results than without warm ups?
     
    naiad and DeepThought like this.
  2. Kars

    Kars Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
    Hi Peter I also experimented with this 'Tom Sietas' like approach.

    I got the same result, also after 2 months of not static training I did a 90% effort 5:52 / out of my 6:19. Thought I did no hyperventilation beforhand I did some stretches like I usually did.

    I to start to think that a -long?- preperation will draw oxigen away from the hard to reach regeons, and change it into CO2.
    When ventilating before the last max breathhold you cannot use that anymore, though the vascoconstriction doesn't allow for new O2 to enter the earias in need?
    Anyway I'm not a doctor, nor I have studied this matter in depth. I hope the knowing arround here read this as a question, and have some awsers.

    I think it increddible cool to do a max static with hardly no preperation, like Tom has shown the world!

    Love, peace and water!

    Kars
     
  3. naiad

    naiad Apnea Carp Supporter

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    I find that I can now get closer to my max time on the first attempt than I could a few months ago. (I have never done a max static on the first attempt though!)

    I always like to do two or even three relatively long warmup breathholds - the short ones do nothing for me. My longest times have been done like this.

    It would be interesting to see whether my first static time eventually becomes the longest.

    Lucia
     
    derelictp likes this.
  4. immerlustig

    immerlustig BlueSkunk

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    derelict

    i would be interested to hear what you did for max static with your standard preperation now(warmup statics etc). because if you are having a peak at the moment, then maybe you might get a new pb with your old system.
    the benefits of warmup statics, as i see it, are to develop buffers , to induce vasoconstriction and increase relaxation. i´m not convinced yet, that a max static is more likely to happen without warmup statics, but it surely is an interesting topic. i´ve been wondering about a different approach to statics as well, especially after reading erics posts and from what i heard about tom sietas, but so far it wasn´t a proprity.
    one thing, though, last season i spent more time training statics and i noticed that more than 2 warmups usually meant shorter max statics.

    roland
     
    derelictp likes this.
  5. watts

    watts small wins

    Local Time:
    7:44 PM
    I to have been experimenting with less warm up statics before a max . Previosly i was doing my normal pack stretching before then get suited up , relax for about 5 mins then i would do 2 warm up statics before my max.
    Then i changed it to 1 warm up static then 1 exhale static then a max and last week tryed only 1 warm up and then a max and i got a new pb :D . I seem to be more comfotable with this . I dont think going straight for a max would work for me at the moment unless i did some dry statics beforehand. Still experimenting Nathan
     
    derelictp likes this.
  6. fpernett

    fpernett Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    5:44 AM
    This "Tom Sietas" approach has been used for my brother for the last 3 years. His last time was 8:48 with 2 previous breatholds of 7:30 and 8.
    I have found that the contractions comes very early but are more "confortable".
    I do believe that we most train close to our maximal, in order to induce adaptation.
    I don´t think that a row of static apneas of 3 min will make any change in your body
     
    abdessalam likes this.
  7. tylerz

    tylerz Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
  8. ivan

    ivan looking for deeper water

    Local Time:
    6:44 PM
    hi

    When Tom does his 9min breatholds with no warmups does this mean he does no breathe up either, ie does he just jump in the pool pack and do the static, or does he hyperventilate before his single attempt ?

    cheers
     
  9. jome

    jome Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    12:44 PM
    Just my input

    So I'm not the only one thinking "maybe Tom is onto something" ;)

    I did my new pb yesterday with very short warmup. But still, I can't do very good with no warmup at all.

    The difference is, that this time all my warmups were empty lung or FRC. Also, I did all of them out of the water. I only hit the water for the max attempt and only did one. The whole session took maybe 20-25 minutes, where I usually do almost and hour. Beat my old record by over 40 seconds :)

    Also, I've (once again) switched my training methods allmost totally. On dry statics I don't even hunt the pb. I just concentrate on doing the most excruciating co2 tolerance training I can imagine. Sometimes up to 1:30 hours of doing cold statics, ie. no breathups, very short rests. Maybe once a week I'll see if I've made any progress (try for the best time).

    The idea is, that shorter warmups are better if you can pull them off. But to be able to do so, you must have great tolerance to co2.

    No scientific analysis here, just going by the gut...

    Ivan: I remember reading in one of Tom's posts, that he does "slight hyperventilation". If I remember correctly, his routine was something like this:
    -A few minutes before official start, he packs 100% (stretching)
    -Then slight hyperventilation
    -Relaxed breathing
    -Inhale and pack about 80% (feeling comfortable) and go.

    Might have changed since then, so take this with a grain of salt.

    Edit: found the thread. Here's the money quote:
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2004
  10. Kars

    Kars Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
    I think this part is important too:

    "For preparation I kneeled down for ten minutes on the edge of the pool"

    finding the right concentration and mood.

    Kars.
     
  11. derelictp

    derelictp Freediver

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    I am soo tired at doing my "old" prep. so I will really give this method some tryouts.

    My challenge is to find the motivation to push it when the contractions come :head , I 'm not soo motivated for statics in fact but whith this method it's funnier...

    It's always fun to use new methods. One good thing is that the static sessions dont have to take 2 hours.:)
     
  12. Kars

    Kars Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
    He Peter, with me there is so much to that I'm busy with that contractions are not so heard to withstand.
    Over time the contractions devellop into a bellyroll, and this is really comfy, you feel like you can hang on forever, and I only go up because I see that my vision is tunneling, or my hand get a small tremble. It's a pitty that I've sort of lost this belly roll, but I'm sure it will come back. Then a 7min can be done with so much ease, yummi I cannot wait :D.

    Kars.

    Heyyyy, It's my 200th post :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2004
  13. derelictp

    derelictp Freediver

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    Kars, do you know why have you lost the "bellyroll" feeling?

    I have to learn how to get myself to my limit!
    I have only got myself to a BO one time and before I hyperventilated intentional and I decided to push through the 6min barrier. At 5'55''-6'00'' I began to loose the air and then my buddy drew me up.

    1 week later I did a 6'03'' static without problems and with less hyperventilation.

    I would like to find a way to get comfy with my contractions, I find it so boring...

    Constant weight is THE discipline in my opinion but I have to set up some goals during the winter too!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2004
  14. jome

    jome Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    12:44 PM
    derelictp,

    That's exactly why I'm no longer doing breathups or warmups. My statics aren't limited by the amount of oxygen. I just can't push my self to samba or bo (well, with hyperventilation I can, but it limits the max time).

    I know a good breathup routine. Finding it took me to 6+ times. But to progress from there, it's all about fighting the breathing reflex. So now I train only that. No hyperventilation, or in fact really any kind of controlled breathing. Just inhale and go. Short rest, do it again. Not much fun, granted, but really helps

    In just 2 weeks I've increased my max contractions from 40 to 56. I'm thinking of stopping timing my dry statics as a whole. Only timing the part from the first contraction to the end, trying to stretch that.

    At least for me, I have to keep switching the methods to keep it interesting. Doing the same old routine day after day, reaching maybe a second or two, just gets old really fast and doesn't really bring much progress.
     
  15. Kars

    Kars Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
    "Kars, do you know why have you lost the "bellyroll" feeling? "

    I think it's because I cannot relax that part as good as I did?
    Maybe it's the amount of air I take in (I quess I need some room for that) Maybe it's the posture (arched back)

    Maybe I should try to learn to move my belly like that on druy land, so that it'll remember?

    Contractions alway's have started of soon with me, as soon as 2' . These day's thay come later, arround 3'. If Tom is at the 4' level, I'm still a minute of this mark. Furthermore I like to go from this 'brute' force to what the yogies are doing. I recon I'm still far from that. But hack I'm only training for two years now!

    Love, peace and water!
    Carlos.
     
  16. O'Boy

    O'Boy New Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
    Need an explanation

    I am trying to understand what lies behind this No Warm-up static. What should be better with this type of preparation opposite to the Classic Warm-up.
    Facts:
    My first Warm-up static is usually 1'00" Empty lung after some 10'00" Breath-up. I have to end this static due to hypoxia(ugly feeling).
    The next Warm-up static is also Empty lung but... 1'45"! This one I have to end due the same hypoxia(feeling).
    My question is: What has changed in my body to achieve better result in 2nd Warm-up static?
    Is it:
    1. My body tolerates less % of SaO2 with each next static?
    or:
    2. The level of SaO2 is the same after those two different statics(close to BO?, ugly feeleing) but with each next static this SaO2 is dropping much slower?:confused:
     
  17. Kars

    Kars Well-Known Member

    Local Time:
    11:44 AM
    I think your second one is much better because your body remembers and reconises the situation, therefor kick in the energy preserving reflexes much quicker.

    I only use some warmup's to turn these reflexes on, like the vains narrowing in your arms and legs.
    And they useually come one much sooner than any uncomfort feeling. This safes me a lot of energy for the official attempt.
    10' minute breathup? I do only 2'-3' . But I do meditate 5-30 min in advance to find my peace and prepair my body.

    Good luck with the exploration.

    Carlos
     
  18. jimbodiver

    jimbodiver Deeper Blue Enthusiast

    Local Time:
    3:44 AM
    SaO2 = O2 saturation, right? (Excuse me while I get educated!)

    I like Carlos' suggestion that the early warmups help trigger constriction of blood vessels in legs, arms, etc....makes sense, though I don't know enough about physiology to say one way or another. I'm learning a lot from this forum!
     
  19. naiad

    naiad Apnea Carp Supporter

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    Maybe for a few people the reflexes are already there for the first static, or a long warmup is needed to make them kick in. I need at least 3:00 for the first warmup, and usually 4:00. (All dry - I still haven't done over 3:46 in the pool!)

    Lucia
     
  20. derelictp

    derelictp Freediver

    Local Time:
    10:44 AM
    I belive that the warmups makes the body more alkaline which makes the breathing reflex less painful. The tolerance to low o2 levels may in fact decrease with the warm-ups. My feeling is that the contractions comes earlier but the hypoxic symptoms is maybe less without warmup.

    I will try more and report my experiences.