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stay or go

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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rigdvr

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May 28, 2002
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Well here I stand with a decision to make. I have said I am not going to participate anymore but after several emails, pm's, karma's, and even a phone call or two, I'm not sure.

I am sure that I will take a breather from getting overly involved in anything controversial(maybe) at least until the charter season is over. I am resolved not to stoop to the levels of some of those I do not see eye to eye with and try the high road. If I stumble, I call upon my friends and not so much friends to remind me of my new found stance(in a pm of course).

I also would like to clear the air on this spearboard issue. I participate there on a limited basis...much as I do here. At first I found the site to be quite intolerant and even encouraged many of the freedivers there to follow me here. Now, in all honesty I find just as much intollerance here and maybe that is what bothers me most. On spearboard, scuba and freedivers have found a way to co-exist, largely in part to spearos that are accomplished at both disciplines, such as Bucket One(Ritchie Zacker). We have also found common ground because of the recent legeslative threats to our sport. In fact, together we formed a group to lobby in our interest and make the presence of spearos felt in regulatory meetings. I might add this effort has had great success including preventing unecessary closures founded on junk science and even overturning bad decisions. It is largely due to spearboard that we have such a great organization. In fact some of the best freediver in the world are there and noty here b/c they dont want to be associated with the "holier than thou" attitude found here sometimes. Guys like GR Tarr, Roberto Reyes, Sasa Bratic, ect, ect. Many of us choose to lurk on both.

I guess my problem is from you international guys who have had horrible experiences both with scuba spearos and your governments lack of forsight to prevent the pilaging of our seas. I also dont understand how many of you who have never dove the enviornment many of these divers hail from can deem them sporting, unsporting, moral, ect, ect. We have rules in place to adequately protect our resources and insure access to them by all user groups. I can promise that the guys you are bashing are just as much concerned with resource sustainability as us freedivers. A little cultural/regional tolerance goes along way. It might not be for you but dont forget, there is someone out there who thinks what we do is not sporting....the guys using only hawaiian slings, who are looked down on by the guys using polespears, who are looked down on by the guys using their bare hands, and so on. We all choose what's right for us and I guess its human nature to justify this choice as the best or most fitting one. Why? To each their own.

When the time comes that my input is no longer wanted here I will step out, but I dont think that time is now.

Have a good week, Ive got 9 trips in the next 7 days :crutch

Mike Freeman
 
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Hey, we've been on this thing for over 3 years. You can't leave now. Especially since you've almost uncovered the assassination of JFK! :blackeye

I wish this place went back to having just a few categories. I feel like I have to go through 20 different forums to find good posts now.

My vote: Stay Beeyotch!

Anderson
 
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rigdvr said:
I also would like to clear the air on this spearboard issue. I participate there on a limited basis...much as I do here. At first I found the site to be quite intolerant and even encouraged many of the freedivers there to follow me here. Now, in all honesty I find just as much intollerance here and maybe that is what bothers me most. On spearboard, scuba and freedivers have found a way to co-exist, largely in part to spearos that are accomplished at both disciplines, such as Bucket One(Ritchie Zacker). We have also found common ground because of the recent legeslative threats to our sport. In fact, together we formed a group to lobby in our interest and make the presence of spearos felt in regulatory meetings. I might add this effort has had great success including preventing unecessary closures founded on junk science and even overturning bad decisions. It is largely due to spearboard that we have such a great organization. In fact some of the best freediver in the world are there and noty here b/c they dont want to be associated with the "holier than thou" attitude found here sometimes. Guys like GR Tarr, Roberto Reyes, Sasa Bratic, ect, ect. Many of us choose to lurk on both.

Mike Freeman

I agree with you Mike . I feel that way sometimes .It seems the more we seperate ourselves the less we're able to acomplish.:(
I look at both sites daily and at the begining on spearboard it seemed more for scuba divers but a lot of established scuba divers started to do well freediving so it made it better for the freedivers as more scuba guys/girls gave it a second thought.On here someone would post a pic of fish shot on scuba and they would get flamed 2 seconds later by a freediver and sometimes by a person that's never posted here before.And to make it worst the person would not give any usefull info on later post. One thing I do like on spearboard is there are several members from the same town and even more from the same state as opposed to here where there are very few people from the same town.As long as we keep seperated we will not have the scuba/freediver relationship as spearboard.

Don't work to hard. Albert.
 
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I'm glad you'll stay amigo. I appreciate your attitude and sensibilty, among other things. A voice of reason is important in any community...not always the best job to have though.
I'm on spearboard these days too because of your posts here and I like it there. It's a different flavour, but you can't live on vanilla icecream forever either ;)
I doubt I'd ever scuba-spear, simply because I don't enjoy scuba at all anymore, but I really like the stories some of these guys tell.
Mike, don't forget that shit stirrers make the most noise no matter where they are, and it's especially easy to assert a false sense of power while at a keyboard 1000's of miles away, hidden behind a screen name. That's why I generally stay out of stupid arguments until I believe unjustice is prevailing and people are being hurt. But relationships and healthy communities take effort, so try to ignore the trolls, and the rest of us as a silent majority should maybe open our mouths a little more when moderate voices of reason are being trampled by cowards.
You are valued highly and respected here Mike, no doubt about it.
Peace,
Erik Y.
 
Wow, so long no landing at Deeper Blue and some nasty explosions going on.
Got a PM at Spearboard on a guy who wanted to know about hunting Dog Tooth on scuba, so here I am dropping by to my beloved site checking my PM.

So many new names here........ :wave...Hello guys.

Kapiten Rig,
You are one of the most reasonable person here, the other one among a few is Bapak Erik Y ......HHHmmm Howdy Erik.... :thankyou
Do stay and don't go, this will make Deeeper Blue a more comfortable place.
That's all I have to say. I can write good stories on my nutty experiments but when it comes to heart-to-heart conversation, I am dumb.

Hello AJ and Mr Dentist Anderson...... :wave

Later guys.........
 
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Mike,
I think you've done a good job in educating many European spearos/freedivers (myself included) about the different situation for US scuba spearing. I've seen you reiterate once and again the reasons for spearing on scuba whenever someone inevitably (and it will always happen because there are new people coming online all the time) expresses their opinion in a negative fashion.

I belive many people think scuba spearing is simply pot-shots at reef fish at shallow depths and they don't realize there are many other forms of the sport that are in a totally different league and can actually entail great danger to the diver apart from providing a real sporting thrill. They should read Maestro Iya's posts. :D

European spearfishing is extremely regulated simply because the Med is very scarce in fish. Overfishing, pollution and exploitation have reduced the marine life to ridiculous levels. All you have to do is go to the Medas Natural Park and see the difference between the life there and the life just a mile away. And even so, quite a few of the spearos here in Spain I've met spear illegally at night, sell fish to restaurants (illegal if not a commercial fisherman) and so on. Not for being a freediver it means that one is ecological or responsible.

I personally belive that both freedivers and scuba spearos can be very ecologically minded and selective in their catch. The truth is to look at ourselves and ask if we are doing it that way. If we are, then being a spearo, from whichever continent we are, should be a common ground for friendship and enjoyment. If we are not then we better stay dry.

In any case, the more we understand each other the better life will be. Despite cultural diversity and different opinions debate is always healthy and enriching. We just have to learn to debate with facts and not with the ego.

If we are not challenged with questions then we will turn into vegetables! So I'm definitely for Rig to stay, you have opened my mind and taught me not to demonize spearing on scuba.
 
Look at the Italian situation where certainly until the mid-eighties it was still legal to spearfish on scuba. The main quarry for mediterranean spearfishermen in those days was grouper and scuba spearfishermen virtually wiped out the grouper stock around the Italian coast. The commercial boys couldn't be blamed as their nets were not making an impact on this species ditto for the rod and line boys. In the 10-15 years that it has been illegal to scuba spear the species has made some kind of recovery and, similar to Spanish grouper, have learned to stay just deep enough to avoid most of the freediving spearos. In the UK technically it is not illegal to spearfish with scuba although BSAC are against it but I think it is very rarely done. Most UK spearos worth their salt value the European sea bass as the top quarry and it would be pointless in pursuing bass with scuba gear - too noisy!

If European spearos went to the U.S. how many would be tempted to try taking larger quarry at depth on scuba? It doesn't appeal to me but nevertheless I'm sure many would try just as a new experience. Perhaps the views expressed on the different boards reflect the International differences more than the scuba spearo vs freediver spearo scenario. In my experience in the UK most of the Scuba crowd hate ANY spearo and the debates have raged long and hard in Diver magazine and other press. Same s**t different day :)
 
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rigdvr said:
I am sure that I will take a breather from getting overly involved in anything controversial(maybe) at least until the charter season is over. I am resolved not to stoop to the levels of some of those I do not see eye to eye with and try the high road. If I stumble, I call upon my friends and not so much friends to remind me of my new found stance(in a pm of course).
Not wishing to get over critical but reading your posts can be a painfull experience as you do have the tendancy to come out fighting, I think perhaps this to some is seen as a personal attack and or an invitation to have an argument or three. Your posts are good and informative and I would like you to stay but I would like you to be a bit nicer too, especially with those who dont know you, you might find the rest of the world isnt quite as bad or stupid as it seems. So here's to reading more from you.
 
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I am amused when I see forum members create the “good bye” post after a particularly spicy thread (even seen them on watch forums!). I can only add my $.02, to me forums are a diversion and a great place to say what ever dumb a** thing that comes to mind on a particular subject. I enjoy the input by people of lesser and greater training/experience and the ability to learn sometimes and laugh a lot of times. I will also admit that I do occasionally enjoy the flaming! The thing to remember is that we are talking about diving, not the proper procedure for open-heart surgery. Have fun, dive and don’t leave, we would miss you..

John
 
Rigdvr stay. Spearingwise the forum is going through a bad patch you're right, still there are many that enjoy your posts and constructive criticism. Will come around eventually. There will always be an inexhaustible flow of smartasses its a law of nature. Dont let it get in your way, on cyberspace or elsewhere.

Nikos
 
Mike,

if you say this forum has no more enjoyment for me becasue of degrading good and quality spearos, informative threads, fish pictures, stories etc.. because of this i am going...Then i can tell you, yes you are right spearing section going down at overall and i understand your desire to leave. But just can not see the point of leaving forum because of somebody did not agreed with you or said scuba spearing sucks....Every one of us have different opinions and this should not bother you at all.

At the end of the day, leaving or not leaving the forum is the decison you should make rather than us but if you ask me i don't want to see another good spearo to leave the forum since there is only few remained...
 
I'm not currently even a spearo - but I enjoy everyone's posts - Rig and Iya being high on the list. Certainly changed what little attitude I had about scuba and spearfishing.
 
Thanks for the responses...even the constructive ones.:) I dont think it b/c of this one argument...its the repetitive nature of it. What does bug me is the immense repect most of the scuba guys have for us freedivers and the total lack of respect we show them here. Thats not the best way to get them to ever try freediving...in fact, I would think it would be counter-productive. I am a scuba convert but I think had I not already been a freediver I might have come away with a bad taste in my mouth after lurking. GRanted, I agree with many here...I would never scuba hunt in the shallow, clear waters of hawaii, the keys, ect, ect but most of these guys dont either. they are doing something totally different. Im not going to continue to try to justify it here but so long as each is enjoying their sport, respecting the resource, and staying safe, whats the big deal? Ive seen scuba guys I wouldnt hunt with because of their attitude or lack of respect for the resource, but Ive seen just as many freedivers with the same flaw. I think the problem is inherent to human nature. Its like big game hunting, Amphib you should understand this analogy...a hunter starts out for the kill, through time and experience they become more selective...trophy hunters, eventually they most enjoy the time in the woods and have little desire to harvest anymore. Some hunter/spearos never make it to the last stage where many of you are, some never make it out of the first!
I guess guys like me are part of the decline here. I posted very little of my trip to Hawaii to hunt with Daryl Wong, I posted nothing of a spectacular Helldivers Rodeo adventure filled with blue waters full of hammerheads and makos and mud colored waters filled with god knows what!(partly b/c of last years response). I might do so when I have time to sit and do more.
I can see where my posts can be painful. As far as internet forums go, 4 years might make me the grumpy old man here, not Bill. I guess after seeing dear friends come and go, it gets harder to be open to new people who werent around last time we had a family fued over the same old crap:) But tis the nature of internet forums.
Speaking of old friends...Im giving a shout out to all of you...if youre lurking let us know how you are doing!
Abriapnea, Andrsn, Aquiles, Jay Styron, Thin Air, and anyone else thats not popping into my sunburnt head.
Goodnight for now, Ive got an offshore adventure tommorrow.
 
I may be a noob on this boards - but I and my trusty nemrod torpedero were punching holes in freshwater lifeforms back before most of you could safely digest cabbage - if ever - often beneath the watchful eye of the most omnipotent law enforcement agency on the planet - the michigan dnr

I thought the Big-Barrel Wrap-around snorkel (Dacor) was proof that not only was there a God - but he, she or it could read my mind and really liked me.

I went to Florida with some friends. I'd never seen salt water before. First thing I saw down there was a florescent pink squid at a midnight campground.- I was nearly hypnotized by velvet black angelfish while a five-foot baracuda languidly opened and closed it's nicely lined jaws just behind me. I went for a snork and saw horshoe crabs ground-effect running along the bottom like something born straight outta the fossil record.

My first experience with scuba spearos was a charter boat in the florida keys.
Most of the other charterers spent a good part of the trip cleaning up the trail of Old Millwaukee cans our red-eyed and hyper-tensive skipper flung, like radar chaff , all over the reef. Only the rocking of the boat made it look like he could stand still. Meanwhile some dismissive crew-wipe with a pneumatic launched off to assassinate a tame grouper they'd been waiting to fatten up in, maybe, 30 feet of water.

Of course all that was ages ago - I was but an impressionable youth. Still - only experience and people who don't fit the attitudes can clean out some impressions.
 
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I may be wrong, but I always had the impression that whenever scuba spearing is critizised on DB it's only by a couple of people on the forum, not more. If anyone has the patience go through the old threads I think it would be what they find. So it's not really accurate to say
the total lack of respect we show them here (Rig)
in respect to scuba divers. Instead of "we" it should be "a very small minority".

I'm pointing this out because as far as I'm concerned and from the feeling I get from others on DB, scuba divers/scuba spearos are welcomed and we enjoy reading their posts and adventures. Unfortunately it just takes one or two people to start off a flame war and give the impression that the majority of the board is against these activities when it's not. Like Eric said, we should open our mouths a little more, and not just to eat the fish we spear! :D

Adrian
 
I agree. I haven't read all the threads but quite a few - and I've only ever seen a couple of people down on scuba. Though alot of noise grows up around such posts.

This site is interesting because the vast majority of people posting here show respect for one another - it really stands out for that.

by the way I really enjoyed Rgdiver's last post and the breadth of perspective it expresses.
 
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