Stormy days at AIDA?

[pehtran]

Yes, Ivo, in other words: if you can not beat the system, join the system.... (sarcasm!).

But seriously: taking some position in AIDA international is not a way to solve the problem of transparency, isn't it?

Miha

 

[apneaboy]

Yes, Ivo, in other words: if you can not beat the system, join the system.... (sarcasm!).

But seriously: taking some position in AIDA international is not a way to solve the problem of transparency, isn't it?

Miha

If you are in the system, you can start to change the system. The new board will decide how transparent AIDA becomes, if you are a board member you can help or hinder that process. I honestly think it will become more transparent in the future but not to the extent every single e-mail is sent to the whole world.

I can't tell what your second sentence means, maybe you could add a little explanation in brackets to all your sentences.

 

[trux]

Miha means exactly what he tells: taking a role in the Assembly does not solve the transparency. You cannot ask every single AIDA member to become an Assembly member. It is the system that needs to be changed, not the people who are in it. Of course, as an Assembly member I might have slightly more influence, but there is no reason why I could not try actively influencing it as an ordinary member.

 

[osusim]

I simply see no point in harassing them permanently with questions what's going on in the Assembly

instead of that you decide to harass all AIDA board, very nice

 

[trux]

Just the opposite, Igor, just the opposite! When they turn on the read-only option in their the Yahoo mail-list, nobody will harass them anymore. They can continue discussing as they did, and we will get all the information without any harassing, and without any effort on their part.

 

[pehtran]

I can't tell what your second sentence means, maybe you could add a little explanation in brackets to all your sentences.

I am sorry, English is not my native language.... But since Trux understood I must be writing with a Slavic accent....?

 

[rxcnc2]

I think democracy has different meanings (like freedom), and frankly it has to be put in contest. If an organization has 100 members, it might be possible that every discussion and decision is made public. If an organization has 1million people, this is just not possible.
AIDA falls in between, and frankly I think I'd rather have a layer that filters all the discussions. If the AIDA national representatives want, they can give the infomration to their national members. Perhaps this is the step which has not functioned too well.

there is no reason why I could not try actively influencing it as an ordinary member.

Multiply yourself by 1000, and try to imagine what happens if everybody is trying to influence the others!

 

[trux]

... AIDA falls in between, and frankly I think I'd rather have a layer that filters all the discussions.

Why, oh why? If you permit filtering, you do not need any information at all - you will get only what is convenient to the messenger. It will require additional time and effort. It won't permit any control, and won't guarantee any accountability. It simply violates the very principle of democracy.

Multiply yourself by 1000, and try to imagine what happens if everybody is trying to influence the others!

The result ïs called "democracy", Andrea. The opposite, with a small group deciding about a bigger one with no control and no accountability, can be called for example totality, monarchy, private enterprise, and I could use many more terms, but prefer avoiding those which would be inflammatory.

Having access to the Parliament makes no problems to countries of hundreds of millions of people, so why couple of hundreds or perhaps thousands AIDA members would pose one?

Anyway 99.9% of people will not read the list. At least certainly not all the time. Perhaps they'll peek in time to time when they hear there is something interesting. But even if 100% of them came each day, and read the list, it won't disturb anyone. And the Yahoo server will hold the load certainly too. What is more important, is the possibility of the free access. There will be enough people like Jorg, or Sebastian, and them alikes, who will inform others when they see any information that desires the attention of the masses.

 

[fabrice]

Trux,

I don't really think that parliaments are a good analogy for AIDA. Do you really think that every exchanges between parliament members are public ? of course not ! Only what is being said and done during sessions is publicly accessible.

Now I can understand your frustration with the state of things at AIDA, but I'm not sure what the best solution would be. Maybe be able to read all messages older than N months could be an alternative ? This would allow people to voice their opinion without risking an immediate flamewar, and progress towards a consensus (or not).

 

[trux]

I don't really think that parliaments are a good analogy for AIDA. Do you really think that every exchanges between parliament members are public ? of course not ! Only what is being said and done during sessions is publicly accessible.

I'll conter: do you think that every dialogue between AIDA officials runs through the mailing-list? Of course not! For me the Assembly list is the perfect analogy to Parliament.

Maybe be able to read all messages older than N months could be an alternative ? This would allow people to voice their opinion without risking an immediate flamewar, and progress towards a consensus (or not).

Sorry, Fabrice, but your ideas about democracy seem to be rather strange. Consensus is not sothing that is stuffed into your throat against your will, while announcing it was decided a few months ago without letting you any chance to voice your opinion. And what's wrong about flamewars? When decisions are being taken, arguments need to be discussed. Members need to know what is being decided before it is decided, so that they can express their opinions and direct their representatives how to represent them, and also to have the possibility to monitor whether they really do, and vote for somebody else the next time, if they do not like the way it was done.

In some cases, at national boards there are people who do not compete themselves. Many judges, instructors, or perhaps even some plain bureocrats there. They will not take the opinions of competitors in their view. They will make decisions more convenient for themselves, giving them more power and control. That's natural and you cannot avoid it, even if the people are perfectly honest and sincere. We simply need accountability. We need representatives who represent all AIDA members and not only some small group. And we need to have control over it, to stay assured they really do what we ask them, and not letting them decide what they tell us.

 

[fabrice]

Trux,

All this means that members don't trust their representative. If so, they should act to change representative since they are elected no ?

And who is the "we" you are using ? Not everyone is a competitor...

We had the same battles at the french federation - it was ugly, and it's not really better now for everyone (eg. for the education part).

 

[trux]

Fabrice, you should know that democracy is not about trust. Wihtout transparency and accountability, there cannot be any democracy. Democracy cannot be based on trust. That's called religion.

And if you do not like "ugly" battles in your parliament, I would recommend you moving to some autocratic regime, like for example Noth Korea - you may feel better. I have had already that experience with life in such regime for almost 30 years, and I can assure you I have no intentions to repeat it.

And by "we" I mean any member of AIDA (just like myself). It can be a competitor, judge, instructor, recreational diver, or anyone else. As I wrote, the representatives have to represent all, not only one group.

 

[fabrice]

Transparency and accountability doesn't mean that you should be able to chime in whenever you want. We need these for sure, but how ?

I'll be interested to know how many members do actually care to vote to choose their AIDA rep at their national elections before complaining, and how many volunteers there are to actually do the job - not just behind their keyboard.

Oh, and be careful, you're near a godwin point. AIDA is not something that serious, it's just about a sport or a leisure activity...

 

[trux]

Transparency and accountability doesn't mean that you should be able to chime in whenever you want.

Ah, no? So, according to you transparency is letting the leaders decide what they tell you and when? On my mind, that has nothing to do with transparency, that's the way how it works in secrete agencies, in private corporations, and in totalitarian regimes.

I'll be interested to know how many members do actually care to vote to choose their AIDA rep at their national elections before complaining, and how many volunteers there are to actually do the job - not just behind their keyboard.

From what I saw and heard, I can tell that the meetings are usually empty, and most frequently you have no choice between several candidates. People are usually thankful if someone takes the position at all. And that's also the problem. Those people are not necessarily extremely motivated, nor experienced, and it can also happen that only few members know them. So they get elected, and then they can agree with any messy proposal on the Assembly. And as long as others have no idea what is going on, there is also no way to prevent it, or to detect that the representative is perhaps worse than having nothing at all. Please note that I do not speak about any specific person or nation - I speak only about the principles of the system as we have it today.

Oh, and be careful, you're near a godwin point. AIDA is not something that serious, it's just about a sport or a leisure activity...

Exactly! And that's why we should not spoil the fun by some stupid power games, and abuse of power. And from what I have heard on this thread, that was the exact reason why the old Board was dissolved by the Assembly, and why we have new elections now. So let's not repeat the same mistake, and better enforce democratic principles limiting the possibility to slip to totalitarian behaviour, and abuse of power.

 

[Billextreme]

There are some that do not get it... no matter what.

The AIDA Assembly mailing list is open for each National AIDA and the AIDA Executive Board to communicate with each other and of course also let each National AIDA to communicate with other National AIDA's.

Each National AIDA have two persons that representing their country and have full access to this list. (to read and to post) Then we also have some National AIDA's that have their National Board e-mail address also connected to this list, and in this mode only to read. (so all assembly mail goes to their whole national board directly)

Then each National AIDA's two representative, the Representative and the Consultant, should send the assembly mail to their national board or to their memebers. This is up to each National AIDA to deside how to solve and/or administrate.

If you are a member of your National AIDA and you would like to know what is happen on the assembly list you SIMPLY have to ask your two representativ to send you this info, or more correct send this info to your national member e-mailing list. There is no secrets here, but the communication and information is for AIDA members only - exactly like it should be. There is NO reason why AIDA should let people who are not members taking part of the internal communication inside of AIDA. AIDA is recognized by it's members and it is AIDA freedivers working for AIDA freediving.

have a nice evening
/B

ps. then, I see no good reason to sponsor such a commercial site like this with discussions that should be on a forum that belonging to AIDA - and could give AIDA paid banners etc.

 

[pranoide]

AIDA is recognized by it's members and it is AIDA freedivers working for AIDA freediving.

If only that was the reality in my country.

If the last representative in my country was as AIDA is one association of clubs not of people. the problem continue because I as individual should be a part of another club to at least have some inside information. Almost burocracit.

Including being part of other parts of AIDA Int. such as instructor.

The problem is not "only"making lobby in my on country.

I have to say that I am with Trux on this one.

AIDA have to grow a lot as "flawless" organization to just be open to discussion from sometimes pseudo-representatives.

DiveFree
m

 

[trux]

There is no secrets here, but the communication and information is for AIDA members only - exactly like it should be.

Nice to hear, Bill, that in fact everything is open and perfectly transparent. And hope that this your opinion will be taken in view, and that the read access to the Assembly list will be allowed to anyone. I'd appreciate much more a completely public access to the list archive, without the necessity to ask anyone, and without the necessity to receive all the email. What harm do you expect from discussing things publicly? Are you afraid that the CMAS or F.R.E.E. would take us over? And why all your emails, and posts on the AIDA forum are equipped with the confidential note that disclosing any of the information will be prosecuted by law (or something in that way)? That does not make it feel the information is quite open.

ps. then, I see no good reason to sponsor such a commercial site like this with discussions that should be on a forum that belonging to AIDA - and could give AIDA paid banners etc.

Well, I'd prefer discussing it there too, but there are so little people there, that it is useless. If the Assembly discussed there, and if all sections were at least readable for all, there would be more reasons to come there. But today, every single section is behind locks, new members do not get any access right without asking the administrator (and do not even know there may be some hidden sections), and there is no information coming from the officials anyway, so why would anyone bother coming there?

 

[Billextreme]

Again,

AIDA is recognized by it's members and it is AIDA freedivers working for AIDA freediving.

If anyone would like to "digg-in" deeper they could become one of this two representative from their National AIDA. I am not afraid of that much really, but AIDA is for the members of AIDA, and we have members paying for this every year. This is how it works and if you do not like it, please contact your National board and ask them to send you (and your National AIDA's) view to the Assembly list.

If there is problems inside of your National AIDA or there are things that is not working as they should (!!!) ...please send this info to the AIDA Executive Board directly and also make sure to send as much info about the situation as possible. AIDA Executive Board is the one to fix this kind of problems.. and this has happen before.

/B

 

[pranoide]

If there is problems inside of your National AIDA or there are things that is not working as they should (!!!) ...please send this info to the AIDA Executive Board directly and also make sure to send as much info about the situation as possible. AIDA Executive Board is the one to fix this kind of problems.. and this has happen before.

Done that already never had an answer.

Or better at the time you(Bill) said that doesnt recognise any AIDA active member in my country.(don't no if its true, because in the AIDA site don't have the actual active members)

I believe in the idea of AIDA IS FOR AIDA MEMBERS-if only this was true.

Someone can be national representative without having any relationship with AIDA such as education/judge/freeediver. This is one problem.

M

 

[Walrus]

Hi Pranoide,
I may have misunderstood your last post. AIDA Portugal definitely have voting rights in the Assembly and the website looks pretty active too, has plenty of contact information, events etc. It should have plenty of members. This is the info provided on the AIDA international site :-

email: info - at - aidaportugal.com (replace with @)
AIDA Portugal - Mergulho Livre em Apneia - Página Principal
Representative: Ricardo José
Consultant: Vítor Oliveira