stuck at 15m'

[sodeds]

hello, could anyone help me with this:
im a newbie. did the 2** aida course in Israel one year ago. and my problem is that when i dive done to 15-17m' i suddenly loss the ability to equalize.
the funny part is that i seem to have a very good potential - far better then 15m'.
ill explain:
-im a swimmer so i feel perfectly comfortable in the water in all aspects.
-im a yoga teacher and practitioner for many years so i have very good control over my body especially breathing mussels, body and mental relaxation capabilities and very good flexibility.
-im pretty sure i use frenzel (reverse packing diving to the button of the pool with only a mouth fill and equalize successfully).
-i decouple soft pallet and epiglottis.

i have practiced dry static and did a lot of reading, the only thing missing is deep sea training - i can go out to sea only every few months. when i did go out to sea, i stopped on the rope at the point i felt i couldn't equalize anymore, around 15-17m'. when head up, focusing very hard on getting air up from the lungs, i successfully equalize down to 20m'. now im a skinny guy and i dont know my lung volume or rv but is it possible that i hit rv and could not bring even a little amount of air up to my mouth so shallow?!
funny how all of the advantages above seems to disappear in the water...how frustrating!

now, as a yogi, whose way is the practice way, it is more then obvious to me that practice is also the answer. it is just that with the little chances that i get to dive in a year i need a guideline on what to practices or what to focus on when i dive.

nice getting it out of my system eventually!
thanks, Oded.

 

[Sebastian GER]

Well, it sounds like you are trying to do the right thing. Make sure you get a good mouth full of air by reverse packing when you can not equalize anymore. I don't think it is very likely that you should have a problem with reverse packing at that depth. If you think you do, make sure to reverse pack a little earlier and keep that air in your mouth. Another thing to watch out for is your head position. Make sure it is neutral and you are not looking up. Equalizing becomes a lot harder if you do. Try focusing on the water surface at the bottom of your mask when you dive down.

 

[sodeds]

thanks! ill try to practice the early mouthfill.
my head pos' is ok, (im not looking up) still it is significantly easier to concentrate on the reverse packing while head up...

about my rv, how can i tell if it is high? how can i (or should i) measure it?

 

[Simos]

I think it's more likely to be lack of equalising technique and practice as opposed to having hit RV. It's quite possible you are using some form of Valsava without realising?

There are various ways of measuring RV - there more DIY ones are a bit dangerous as they involve full exhale at depth so I would not advise them.

Try to stop worrying about having hit RV and focus on equalising technique instead and exercises - nothing of course can make up for spending time practising in the water... You shouldn't have to need such an early mouthfill either but I guess it's up to you whether you want to go down this route...

 

[vali]

i guess is the equalization technique
are you packing? do you have problems with the air at that depth?
try equalize more often in the first 10m and be sure to equalise a little bit before the ears sound the alarm
only with valsalva is quite simple to go at 20-25m
and yea...don-t look to the bottom when dive
if you have a corect lestation, after 10-12m you can let yourself [free] flow into the depths, to conserve energy...

 

[sodeds]

simos and vali thank you!

I think it's more likely to be lack of equalizing technique and practice as opposed to having hit RV. It's quite possible you are using some form of Valsava without realizing?

i accept. ill stop worrying about that and focus on practice and technique.
as i said, i don't get too many chances to practice in open water so i spend most of the time on dry technique: i revers pack until epiglottis is locked (i open my mouth and relax the throat and air is not coming in the lungs) then i equalize.
isn't this exercise rules out valsalva?(or at least proves that i can franzel on dry land).

are you packing? do you have problems with the air at that depth?

i don't pack when diving, problems with the air? do you mean if i feel out of air? no! as i said, i practice dry static so i go down, get stuck (it doesn't take much time to get to 15m'), then hangs on the rope for about 1 minute trying to equalize/be aware what is happening with my soft palate, epiglottis and diaphragm/just enjoy the view.

try equalize more often in the first 10m and be sure to equalize a little bit before the ears sound the alarm
only with valsalva is quite simple to go at 20-25m

that is what i hear from most people so i want to see if got it: i go down and equalize when i fill the ear drum stretching. now, i don't feel pain! just movement, the need to equalize. should i equalize before even that feeling?
and, finally, if valsalva can take me down 20-25m' it means that i can blow bubbles out at that depth. im not 100% sure but i think i cant. is that a good way to tell if i can/cant equalize at that depth with valsalva - maybe that is what i meant by rv. not my actual rv but the volume that i can no longer blow out.

all advice are really helpful! keep'em coming.

 

[Erik]

Stop (literally) and do a full, proper mouthfill at 10 metres. If you wait until deeper, you wont get enough air or you'll be reverse-packing which is very inneficient.
If you do a proper mouthfill at 10 metres you have enough air to dive much deeper than 15 metres ie: 50+.
Take your time
Erik

 

[vali]

@sodeds
ok...
there are two posibilities
one...my english is not so good and i think right, but i wrote wrong, or
two: you don't know what valsalva means
so!
valsalva is not mouthfill or frenzell
valsalva means when you do the equalising, you pinch your nose and try to get the air out...of course, the air has no way to escape and he goes to the ears pushing the ear-drums, making the equalising....
i do that in the first 10 meters quite often
the valsalva manouver is good for little depths for he is an air consumption method...however is the simplest way....
i dived with valsalva at 28m i guess after 30m is somehow hard to go only with valsalva....

 

[sodeds]

Erik: will do! thanks. ill let you know how it goes after my next sea session.

vali:i think we understand each other perfectly well - my understanding of valsalva is that you push air up from the lungs using your abdominal mussels, very much like when exhaling air in normal breathing, pinching the nose of course leading the air to e-tubes - otherwise the air escapes (very much like when exhaling air in normal breathing) witch is why i thought it is a good way for testing if i have enough air for valsalva at that depth [maybe you can "blow out" at 20m' with your 6liter lungs and i cant even at 10m' with my 3 liter lungs - for example].

 

[vali]

i really don't know what volume of air can i hold in my loungs
i can tell that i have 43 years old/ 95kg / 1,70m and about 7 cigarettes a day... [i know...smoking is not good(]

 

[sodeds]

man! and i thought my baseline was good
im 1,70m 55kg...they should mix us together and cut in half.

 

[vali]

man! and i thought my baseline was good
im 1,70m 55kg...they should mix us together and cut in half.

hahaha!!!
you're right!!
you migth have annother problem
is true, i'm 95 kg, but have also very strong legs...somehow i guess this help me allot because the energy spent by me finning down is severely decreased by that...
im not shure but i guess so...

 

[sodeds]

results!!!
after the last sea session im still stuck at 15m' but i came to some conclusions:
1. my lung volume is 3.5liters give or take.
2. the point that i can no longer EQ is not my RV, it is my FRC! that is the point that air will flow from the mouth to the lungs if the epiglottis is not looked. at that point i exercised reverse pack air into my mouth and let it flow back into my lungs over and over, that way i could feel and understand how air behaves in the body at that depth.
3. i am doing frenzel, but, i dont keep the epiglottis locked between EQs! (there is no need to do so befor hitting FRC so i got use to not doing it).

so now my practice at 15m' is: to reverse pack ,locking epiglottis and keeping it locked.

continuing down the road...
thanks, Oded.

 

[azapa]

you should not be reverse packing until RV (unless you are topping up with air to dive much deeper than RV). Or unless (sorry, have not read entire thread) you are diving at half lung or FRC.

With full lungs a non reverse pack eq should work on most people to 25m at least. on the other hand, a full lung Valsalva will fail at 12 to 15M.

Sorry if i have missed the point, please ignore if this is the case

 

[Andrew the fish]

so now my practice at 15m' is: to reverse pack ,locking epiglottis and keeping it locked.

I think 15m is way too shallow for going mouthful, something is wrong with your lungs capacity. One doesn't need packing even, just take really good breath and you should have been good to 30m. You sure you know how to take a good deep breath?

Also, equalize early and often, pop-pop-pop all the way down, no nose-pinching, isolate those e-tube openers and use them. 15m is a good depth, there is a lot to see at 15m but then, there is also 20 and 25 and 30 even better.

Ah, almost forgot, there is one more thing you can try. Dive FRC a few times at shallow depths before going deep, somehow it helps in blood shift, you lungs will respond to depth so much better and voila! you will have a lot of air at 15m.

Apart from FRC you can also try descending very slowly, allowing the blood shift to kick in and free up some volume. But then, I am still in doubt why would you need these tricks for 20 or 25 meters.

 

[cdavis]

It sounds like you are not doing frenzel correctly. Try this check. Sit down, get comfortable, seal your nose, totally relax your chest and diaphragm, then start to frenzel. With no movement of chest or diaphragm, you should get a strong pressure in your nose, enough to make a balloon out of your nostrils. If not, there is something not right with your frenzel.

At the same time, you should hear your ears pop. If not, there is something very tight about your Eustachian tubes or valves.

Connor

 

[sodeds]

thank you all for your reply:
yes, i agree, i dont need mouthfull at that depth i just need to learn to keep my epiglottis locked.
azapa - i revers pack just as an exercise to feel air flow back to lungs. i will not do it when i get used to keeping epiglottis locked all the way down.
you say most people get to 25m with full lungs, well most people have 6 liters i have 3.5 give or take...
at a certain depth air starts flowing from mouth to lungs (frc) if you, for example, exedently "lose" the mothful back to the lungs (above RV) how do you get it up?

Connor - the only thing im not doing correctly when i frenzel is keeping my epiglottis locked between EQs. i was diving up to 15m so i got used to lock epiglottis, frenzel, then relax epiglottis. it didnt matter because air remained in the mouth, only deeper then 15 i realized the importance of keeping it locked.

 

[Andrew the fish]

thank you all for your reply:
lock epiglottis, frenzel, then relax epiglottis.

Well I guess to much knowledge hurts after all. Not too long ago I didn't even know where epiglotis is or who is that Frenzel guy.

Like I said, find and isolate those e-tube opening muscles. Do your Frenzel thing repeatedly, right now in front of computer, and find the way to hear the same "pop" in your ears without any movement in your mouth, sorta like yawning but without yawning.

The other part of my previous post was how to get about with smaller lungs volume. Not how to assure the lung squeeze, and IMHO you are heading that way.

Locking epiglotis to save some air for equalization would mean you are going mouthfull, isn't it? And you were saying you don't need mouthfull. I am lost here

 

[rddk]

Sodeds my advice is to equalize the mask, some people do not put attention to this detail and they fail equalization for this reason. Another thing even if you got only 3.5l of air this do not mean that you need a mouthfill to equaliza to 15+ metres, try to work a lot on your frenzel, also when you arrive at a point that you can't equalize anymore stop at that dept turn head up and try to equalize head up. than surface. Try to do this couple of times and than try again equalizing at your critical dept head down as a normal dive.