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stuck at 4:20 static

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Mad Max

New Member
May 21, 2002
48
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Hi.

I have a big problem, hope someone knows an answer.
I'm freediving since february, at the beginning everything went good. Doing static after 3 weeks 2:50, 4 weeks 3:01, 5 weeks 3:31, 6 weeks 4:01 then after i think 8 weeks 4:15 that was it for the next month. Then doing 4:20 in may and so here I am.
Trying and trying but those 4:30 or more are out of reach.
Now I focus on static but it's impossible. Doing a variaty of +4min, but not the big one.

Is that normal that someone stuck at this time for so long?
Does someone know what is wrong?

Sorry my English isn't the best.
 

DSV

New Member
Jan 11, 2002
232
30
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Stuck

Hey Mad Max,

I know how you feel. I'm stuck at a certain time and want to go longer.


Just a few questions first.
What are your warm ups?
Are you getting cold during warm ups or final static?
Are you getting contractions? If yes how many?
Are you comfortable in the water?

All these things and probably more are questions you need to ask yourself. Make mental or real notes and them ask on the forum again. You may find that one or more parts of your routine are the problem. Then you adjust those and see what happens.

I'd be more than happy to help. You can email me directly.

DSV
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
1,503
48
0
hi Max

I know exactly how you feel after doing dry statics for a month I got up to 5:06. Now I cant beat that so I have stop doing statics I was doing them around every second day they kept getting worse. I haven't done any for around a week and on friday night im going to try some and see how it goes after a break who knows i might beat my record. But I would take DSV' s advice he is far better than me.

cheers
 

basco

New Member
Dec 7, 2001
74
1
0
My advice is to make one max static per week. No more.. It gives you time to build up a psychical self-confidence. When I got stuck, I stopped doing statics for over a year because it was so boring.. then I developed a much shorter warmup in my mind, and the first time I tried it, I broke my old pb on the first try. After a year without training.. I think statics are 99,9% psychical..
However, everyone are different. Lucky huh? So try whatever comes into your mind..
 

Mad Max

New Member
May 21, 2002
48
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To DVS.

To your questions:

My warm up diverse, either I do 2 negative statics then 2 warm up statics then the big one.
Or I do 4 statics to 2:30 with short breathing times in between (2min, 1min, 30sec, 15sec) and then the big one.

I'm not cold cause I wear a neoprenshirt, coldness isn't the problem.

Yes I get contractions, don't know how many, but I'm able to hold them for about 1min 30 sec, so if I get the first at 3:00 I know the attampt is very good.

I'm very comfortable in the water, i'm near to fall asleep but I don't.

I'll try again at weekend in a lake together with Dieter Baumann hope he gives me some advice too.
I will also try to do a new cb personal best, hopefully 20 or 25 m.

I will let you know at sunday.
 

DSV

New Member
Jan 11, 2002
232
30
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Statics

Mad Max,

You warm ups may be the problem. You should try doing longer and longer warm up/statics.

Example:

Warm Up:
5:00 facial immersion with snorkel, no mask
3:00 breathe up
2:00 static
5:00 rest, relaxed normal breathing
5:00 breathe up
3:00 static
Repeat 5:00 rest and breathe up, 3:30 static if you don't feel ready
7:00 to 9:00 rest, relaxed normal breathing
7:00 to 9:00 breathe up
Go for a long one.

The rest time is very important. Statics are very taxing to your body and it needs the rest to recover. If at any time during your breathe ups you start to tingle (hands, arms, legs, abdominal area, lips) you are ready to go. You can do 1 of 2 things. 1. you can start your static or 2. you can pump your fist to make the level of CO2 rise to stop the tingle. Be sure during your breathe ups you do some purging to blow off CO2, usually near the end of the breathe up.

Everything else looks good.

Remember this is just an example. If you can't do it no problem adjust to what you can do.

This is my routine and I've been averaging 6:30+ so I know it works for me, but everybody is different.

Say Hi to Dieter from the long blond haired American Team Member for me.

DSV
 

Mad Max

New Member
May 21, 2002
48
3
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DSV

Thanks, I will try your program as soon as possible.

I'll bring Dieter your greetings.
 

Mad Max

New Member
May 21, 2002
48
3
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39
I did it!!!

Today I break my barrier and did a 4:40 static!
So this gives me back motivation to go further.

Thanks to everybody in this forum, especially to DSV.
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
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Re: Statics

Originally posted by DSV
Mad Max,

You warm ups may be the problem. You should try doing longer and longer warm up/statics.

Example:

Warm Up:
5:00 facial immersion with snorkel, no mask
3:00 breathe up
2:00 static
5:00 rest, relaxed normal breathing
5:00 breathe up
3:00 static
Repeat 5:00 rest and breathe up, 3:30 static if you don't feel ready
7:00 to 9:00 rest, relaxed normal breathing
7:00 to 9:00 breathe up
Go for a long one.

DSV


This is what I do and I also manage to squeeze out a 6:28...we are pretty close using basically the same warmup technique...Now my question is....who's going to help us to get to 7:30?
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Beyond 6:30

Most good athletes, with lots of practice, can pull off 6:30 statics with similar warm up routines as DSV's. Beyond 6:30, metabolism & body temperature are the main limiting factors. Most divers need slow metabolism and low body temperature to progress beyond 6:30. Unfortunately neither of those happens in day-to-day life. If you are doing your statics dry, getting a low body temperature is difficult. After a long fast, do the statics past bedtime, when your temp is already going down, in a very cool room. For wet statics, you can cool yourself off much easier, but it is easy to get too cold.

Either way, beyond 6:30, most progress is made by juggling of various variables. If you have recently exercised, your metabolic rate tends to be high, which will prevent you from reaching your potential in static.

If you have an overactive thyroid gland, your metabolic rate will always be high, and long statics will be difficult if not impossible until your thyroid activity is normalized.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
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Re: Beyond 6:30

Originally posted by efattah
Most good athletes, with lots of practice, can pull off 6:30 statics with similar warm up routines as DSV's. Beyond 6:30, metabolism & body temperature are the main limiting factors. Most divers need slow metabolism and low body temperature to progress beyond 6:30. Unfortunately neither of those happens in day-to-day life. If you are doing your statics dry, getting a low body temperature is difficult. After a long fast, do the statics past bedtime, when your temp is already going down, in a very cool room. For wet statics, you can cool yourself off much easier, but it is easy to get too cold.

Either way, beyond 6:30, most progress is made by juggling of various variables. If you have recently exercised, your metabolic rate tends to be high, which will prevent you from reaching your potential in static.

If you have an overactive thyroid gland, your metabolic rate will always be high, and long statics will be difficult if not impossible until your thyroid activity is normalized.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Eric,
What would be a long fast?

what would be a good indication of whether your body can handle that kind of static or not?

...like something that happened to me recently was I did a 6:00 static after a 2 hour training session in the pool...I got my first contraction at 5:15 and then about 4-5 after that to 6:00...I didn't have anyone watching me so I didn't want to push it but the difficulty was about 7 on the 1-10 scale (10 being BO)...

How much further do you usually push past the first contraction?

Do you ever hold it till you BO/Samba?

Also you say that after a workout your metabolic rate tends to be high...Does this include pool training or are you talking about cardio type workouts...Usually my pool workouts are all swimming back and forth with fins, without, all kindsa stuff in apnea, and also not...variations of everything...then my best statics are usually at the end of a my freedive training...

Ok...so many questions I am confusing myself..

Later all...

David Lee
 

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
1,805
332
188
81
Eric
Would you please comment on packing for static.
Aloha
Bill
 

DSV

New Member
Jan 11, 2002
232
30
0
56
Warm up routines

First a BIG CONGRATS TO MAD MAX for achieving his goal and stepping up to the next level. :thankyou


Erik,

What sort of warm up would you suggest for a longer static time?
I do my statics wet never dry because I can't even get close dry. I'm too uncomfortable. Last Fri. I did a new PB of 6:40 with no problems and could of gone longer but that was my target. So I think with just a little adjustment or not? I'll be able to break the 7:00 barrier soon.

I'm using a work out plan that Kirk K. gave me so I think he knows what he's talking about. I'm always open for suggestions.

David if you want to email me directly and share training tips feel free. That also goes out to anyone. I'm ready for the next level.

DSV
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
118
45
Originally posted by Bill
Eric
Would you please comment on packing for static.
Aloha
Bill

Bill, I know you didn't ask me but I thought I would share my experience with packing...definately not a technical answer...I pack about 3-4 times for a static..I have experimented with this a bunch and I have never been able to hit the times I do without packing. If I pack too much until noticable streching starts to occur then it's too much stress to hold the air in and shortens the static time. I found a happy medium between no packing and too full works for me...

And another thing...whenever I take my last breath before doing the static I inhale fully and then pack like a mofo until full, then exhale...After that my pulse rate slows considerable (eric could probably tell you why, but I can't) then I do 4 semi-quick breaths and then for the 5th I squeeze everything out past residual and then some....then take a 5-6 second full breath pack 3-4 times depending on how that last breaht was and then go for it. the full last inhale including packing is about 10 seconds...

damn, just tried it to see how long the breath really took and almost had a hyperoxic bo infront of the computer :D

So yes, 10 seconds for the last breath...

So I think packing helps...well, it helps me anyway.
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
1,503
48
0
Big Numbers

hi

I feel like trash after reading this thread you guys are all at 7:00min and I cant even do 6:00min. I have recently lost motivation for statics havent done any for a couple of weeks. Main reason is cos I wasn't improving anyway im now doing a bit of running and swimming just to get a bit of fitness maybe this will help statics.

cheers
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
118
45
Re: Big Numbers

Originally posted by ivan
hi

I feel like trash after reading this thread you guys are all at 7:00min and I cant even do 6:00min. I have recently lost motivation for statics havent done any for a couple of weeks. Main reason is cos I wasn't improving anyway im now doing a bit of running and swimming just to get a bit of fitness maybe this will help statics.

cheers

Never fear, sometimes all you need is a break...I keep a log of all my statics...Date, time, pulse rate, difficulty, and a little comment box for how it went. From looking back at that it always seemed like I hit a PB with a long break in between. May be the same for you too..
 

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
1,805
332
188
81
David
Thanks for the answers. I laughed at your comment 'sometimes all you need is a break'. I did another best this week after a week off, for the umpteenth time.
I'm chasing after DSV, have been for over a year. More and more, if I try the opposite of what works for him, I improve. It might just be the age difference. The good news, my metabolism is slow. The bad news, my heart rate is high. Only found a few ways to lower it. When I start to hold my breath and when I exhale, it will slow for a dozen beats or so. If I dive to 15 meters and relax or if I wait until contractions and relax, then it will slow about 25% and stay there. Three times, it's slowed on a dynamic and all three, I ran into the wall. Like I was hypnotised. No where near the B/O zone (switch at 30 meters and wall at 45) but scary, for my buddy too.
When you suggested to slow down for dynamics, I tried 0.5 to 1.3 meters per second and right in the middle seems best.
Aloha
Bill
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
My thoughts

Replies to various questions:

- How long a fast? (David)
> I once graphed my apnea time vs. time without food. After 6 hours of fasting the benefit becomes less and less. After 24 hours there is no more change at all. But, keep in mind that simple sugars help raise your RQ right before your static; they will take you out of ketosis (which occurs after fasting)

- How much to push it (David)
> Depends on your situation. David; If you are going from 5:15 (1st contraction) to 6:00 (in the water!) without a spotter, I'd be very worried...it is possible to samba/BO after only 20 seconds of contractions, and some people (Fred S.) can samba without ever having any contractions. However, in my opinion if you have ventilated properly, you should manage 1:30 - 2:00 of contractions before vision starts fading. If vision fades less than 1:30 after the 1st contraction, you overventilated.

- Packing for static (Bill)
> Herbert and I do a similar pattern; pack tons on the first few statics. The whole static should be extremely uncomfortable. However, your lungs are stretching. Each one will get more comfortable. Then, on the big one, pack almost full, then move the air into your cheeks, and close your throat. This offloads pressure from your lungs, and allows your heart to slow a bit. Then, when you need it, suck the air back down. Using this sequence, I reached all my best statics, being almost uncomfortably full for the first few minutes.

- Warm up sequence (DSV)
> This will take a while to go through. First I will show you what gave me the best results, then we'll talk theory.

My two best days of statics had the following patterns:
Feb 26 / 2002
11:40pm, pulse 56-59, T=97.3F
1. Two breaths, 3'30, no contractions, easy
2. Recovered with 4-5 breaths, rested 20 seconds, then 2 breaths, 5'43 (3'48), 30 contractions
3. Hyperventilated for 1 minute, full exhale, 2'38 static
4. Hyperventilated for 3 minutes, full exhale, reverse pack, 2'11 static, with a samba at the end
5. Hyperventilated for 3 minutes, full exhale, 2'29 static, samba at the end
6. Fire breathing for 2'30, full inhale+pack, 6'49 (6'00)
7. Fire breathing for 2'30, full inhale+pack, 7'35 (6'22)

March 19 / 2002
11:47pm, pulse 59-60, T=36.5C
1. Two breaths, 3'30, no contractions, easy
2. Recovered with 4-5 breaths, rested 20 seconds, then 2 breaths, 5'35 (3'40)
3. Hyperventilated 2 minutes, exhale, static 2'43, samba
4. No recovery, two breaths, exhale, static 1'27
5. Hyperventilated 2 minutes, exhale, static 2'44
6. Fire breathing for 2'30, full inhale+pack, 7'02
7. Fire breathing for 2'30, full inhale+pack, 7'24

Even though you only have 5 litres of blood (of which about half is water), your body contains around 50 litres of water. Not much O2 dissolves in water, but 50 litres is a lot, and you store about 5% of your O2 store in this water, which is referred to as the 'tissue' oxygen store. When your SaO2 drops below 80%, you start stealing oxygen from this 'tissue' store, and you enter 'deep tissue hypoxia'. This 'oxygen debt' can take a LONG time to replenish once you deplete it (because lactic acid also accumulates in your organs). Thus, if you do a single static where you go below 80% SaO2 for any length of time, you will enter into an oxygen debt which could take half an hour to replenish. If you breathe up quickly, within a couple of minutes your blood will be fully re-oxygenated, but your tissues will continue slowly stealing O2 from your blood, because they are still hypoxic. So, if you don't allow the 30 minutes to replenish the tissue store, you start out with about 5% less O2. However, waiting for 30 minutes is enough time for the apnea-reflex to reverse (i.e. spleen re-absorbs blood cells, metabolic rate increases etc.)

Doing extreme statics, inhale or exhale (even to the point of a samba), will bring on the apnea-reflex full force, but it will also put you into deep tissue hypoxia. At that point, if you start your next static soon, you will have the FULL benefit of the apnea-reflex, but you will be 5% deficient in oxygen. If, on the other hand, you wait 30 minutes to replenish your 5% tissue store, you lose a lot of your apnea-reflex. From my patterns above, you can see that I do not allow time to replenish the tissue store.

In March of 2000 I had tremendous success with the following pattern:
1. 4'00 statics, over and over, up to 8 times, short recoveries
2. Max static

In a good diver, a 4'00 static drops SaO2 to about 80%; if you don't breathe up much, the hypercapnia of the 4'00 will induce the apnea-reflex, without causing deep tissue hypoxia. The effect will be slower than a huge inhale or exhale static, so you will need to do many of them.

In less skilled breath-holders, you would need a 2'30 or 3'00 static at most, to avoid dropping below SaO2 = 80%.

I also had a series of 7'10 - 7'12 statics in 2001 when my warm up consisted of a single 3'30 static, followed by a 4'00 breathe up and the big one. The advantage then was I didn't enter deep tissue hypoxia, yet my apnea-reflex was not fully engaged either.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
118
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Ok, so I admit...now looking back at the 6:00 with first contraction at 5:15 (in water) that was a bit dumb, actually it was very dumb...

So thanks much, I have lots of fun stuff to go play with now...with a spotter of course :D
 
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