"Super Steel" spear shaft?

[Savagedragon]

7mm SUPER STEEL TAHITIAN SHAFT WITH GLIDING TIP - Beuchat

More accuracy, longer range and perforation capability

www.beuchat-diving.com

Beuchat apparently has a new type of innovative spearshaft, made of 'super steel' and the tip has a trench cut into it to "shoot water jet down the shaft to make it more accurate"

My question is, what exactly is this super steel? I know super steel is sometimes used in knife making, but the info is vague. Is this just another marketing gimmick? Is it more related to spring steel or stainless steel?
And also what do you all think of the trench cut into the tip ?
Is this all marketing gimmick or is this shaft something innovative?

 

[popgun pete]

Put it this way, if that tip shape generates a force to make the shaft tip stay up on a horizontal shot to counter the gravitational effects then what does it do if you shoot at a 45 degree downwards angle, does it then compensate too much? The idea has been around for some years, but as it never succeeded in creating much interest before I can say that you might as well forget about it. As for the super steel you can probably forget about that as well as spears need to be expendable and they need to be made of stuff that will do the job without being too exotic. The greatest advances usually occur in the marketing department!

 

[Savagedragon]

Put it this way, if that tip shape generates a force to make the shaft tip stay up on a horizontal shot to counter the gravitational effects then what does it do if you shoot at a 45 degree downwards angle, does it then compensate too much? The idea has been around for some years, but as it never succeeded in creating much interest before I can say that you might as well forget about it. As for the super steel you can probably forget about that as well as spears need to be expendable and they need to be made of stuff that will do the job without being too exotic. The greatest advances usually occur in the marketing department!

That's what I thought.
However, what I am interested about is what is the next similar steel to super steel? Does it have properties close to that of spring steel or stainless steel?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I don't know what this super steel is, but Addiction Spears in California sells a shaft made of UHT? (or something like that) that is alleged to be much harder and much more resistant to bending. They are also much more expensive than normal stainless shafts. I have no experience with them but I've been told that the claims are true. http://www.addictionspears.com/home.html

 

[Savagedragon]

I don't know what this super steel is, but Addiction Spears in California sells a shaft made of UHT? (or something like that) that is alleged to be much harder and much more resistant to bending. They are also much more expensive than normal stainless shafts. I have no experience with them but I've been told that the claims are true. http://www.addictionspears.com/home.html

Do you prefer stainless shafts or spring steel?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I prefer stainless. I've tried spring steel but found it too much of a PIA trying to control rust. But I use slip tips and almost never bend a shaft on the fish we shoot in SoCal. If you lose shafts or bend shafts frequently, then spring steel may be preferable. You won't own them long enough for the rust to be a problem.

 

[Mr. X]

I liked the RA spring steel Spears but they start to rust after a while in the GB climate. A wipe with an oily rag is all that is required to prevent that but I prefer the maintenance-free stainless Omersub Spears that I use now.

But, I prefer the longer, heavier down-hanging flopper of the RA Spears - more reliable and effective. I used to prefer the tri-cut points too but I was surprised to find that it is easier to sharpen the stainless conical points to a factory level finish, at least it was for me. Although I would sharpen tri-cuts differently now.

Both have pros and cons, no outright winner really.

BTW It should be possible to get a stainless spring steel these days, with most ,or all of the benefits of both types. I bought a couple of stainless knives recently that seem to take and hold an edge much better than normal, more like carbon steel - so there is hope!

 

[popgun pete]

17-4 PH is a stainless spring steel and has been around for a long time now, it was originally developed for propeller drive shafts in vessels. Most of my spear inventory is made of the stuff and alongside them are plain stainless and 316 (which is too soft) and a few cadmium plated carbon steel shafts. I have a near unbendable spear made of a steel that rusts which is so hard it took a big effort to put the thread on it and is a type of maraging steel. Now the spear has a browned finish loaded up with oil and smoothed like the blued finish on a firearm using emery paper with a light rub. I used to have two, they were custom made, but lost one to the depths.

 

[vrokhlenko]

316 steel only can be tempered using cold works (not heating) and it is indeed too weak - a 17-4PH or 15-5 are superior. H900 spring temper for 17-4PH is the one used for shafts and requires an hour in the oven at 900 degrees. It is a decent steel and used on most air gun shafts. The Rockwell hardness in H900 condition is about 42. Sandvik steel (I forgot the formula) used for shafts is a superior steel since it can reach a higher hardness but more expensive. People who use it tell me that on the Hawaian shafts the tip stays sharp after hitting rocks. On 17-4 it gets smashed.
But there mast be an equilibrium between hardness and springiness. An unbend-able shaft can break. So a compromise must be reached.

 

[Mr. X]

Could they not just harden the spear tips?

Rockwell 42 HR-C? Most of my carving tools are 58/59 and Japanese tools often in the early/mid 60s but somewhat brittle but I think striking tools, such as axes, and saw plates are/were often around 42. 42 sounds like a reasonable hardness for a spear, which may take a beating.

 

[vrokhlenko]

Could they not just garden the spear tips?

Rockwell 42 HR-C? Most of my carving tools are 58/59 and Japanese tools often in the early/mid 60s but somewhat brittle but I think striking tools, such as axes, and saw plates are/were often around 42. 42 sounds like a reasonable hardness for a spear, which may take a beating.

Reasonable - yes. Best - no. If you have a hawaian shaft and hit rocks often - the shaft becomes disposable since the tip needs to be sharpened and pretty soon you would have to move the flopper down. I am planning putting a thread on mine and convert it into a screw-on tip. Luckily I have an M6 die that is good enough for 42 HRC. But I avoid hitting rocks at all cost.

 

[popgun pete]

Back in the sixties there were only screw on speartips and integral tip shafts only appeared with the arrival of Tahitian style guns with single flopper barbs on a 1/4 inch diameter shaft. The Tahitian guns had a long spear for their length with a lot of overhang and they were cobbled together from assorted gun parts as used by Tahitian divers. Screw on tips were usually double flopper and the heads were case hardened at the front end and then the whole lot cadmium plated. The case hardened tips were reasonably durable, but after a couple of hits on rocks the extreme tip could be snapped off, losing a couple of millimeters after which you had to grind them back. At some time in the seventies case hardening was abandoned and the tips were softer, yet easier to file and then the quality dropped off as did the variety of shapes.

For decades speargun shafts had threaded ends and the few shafts that had a flopper on the shaft had screw on tips such as Nemrod used on their pneumatic gun shafts. Some spring gun spears had a screw on speartip that had a screw on point as everyone hunted around rocks. Some spear tips were rather long and had staggered floppers each pivoting on its own pin and although rare some had triple floppers.

 

[Mr. X]

Yes, that's what I was thinking - better to be able to sharpen out dings than for the tip or bits of it to snap off. But you'd want a balance.

I recall reading something about some alloy steels being very tough recently, I don't recall the details but perhaps using vanadium and/or tungsten or one or more of some other elements. But again there are compromises to be made, very hard steels can be difficult/expensive to work with.

 

[vrokhlenko]

Yes, that's what I was thinking - better to be able to sharpen out dings than for the tip or bits of it to snap off. But you'd want a balance.

I recall reading something about some alloy steels being very tough recently, I don't recall the details but perhaps using vanadium and/or tungsten or one or more of some other elements. But again there are compromises to be made, very hard steels can be difficult/expensive to work with.

A kilo of 17-4PH hot rolled costs $3-$4 per kilo. So labor is the biggest cost. All work (drilling, milling and threading) must be done in the annealed state. After that the shaft is hardened and tempered. I had to drill and thread a 17-4PH finished shaft and it was tough but doable since good quality drill bits are 62HRC. I usually buy shafts longer than I need and then shorten them. Not sure it would work with the Sandvik shafts.
I order my shafts from Europe since it costs me less to get from there 2 with shipping than one locally before shipping charges. I even used to make them (built my own tempering oven) but it is more cost-effective to buy.

 

[popgun pete]

Cost reduction has been the driver for the simpler spears that we have today. In the old days when labour costs were low there were a lot more parts in spearguns and that included spears as you had the detachable points, the body of the speartip with the floppers, a flopper keeper system and springs to spread the floppers and then the spear shaft all of which could be made of different steels for the hardness and flexibility required. Line slides had collars and trailing legs to attach the line, shock absorbing spring and centralizing washers at the rear. At one time all these parts, except the front tip which was hard stuff, were full stainless steel in the optional fitout to the cadmium plated and zinc plated items. You paid more for the stainless option as stainless steel was more expensive and spears were often 9 mm in diameter, no skinny shafts in those days!

 

[vrokhlenko]

Cost reduction has been the driver for the simpler spears that we have today. In the old days when labour costs were low there were a lot more parts in spearguns and that included spears as you had the detachable points, the body of the speartip with the floppers, a flopper keeper system and springs to spread the floppers and then the spear shaft all of which could be made of different steels for the hardness and flexibility required. Line slides had collars and trailing legs to attach the line, shock absorbing spring and centralizing washers at the rear. At one time all these parts, except the front tip which was hard stuff, were full stainless steel in the optional fitout to the cadmium plated and zinc plated items. You paid more for the stainless option as stainless steel was more expensive and spears were often 9 mm in diameter, no skinny shafts in those days!

Speartip with floppers are still available, they just cost more. Sigalsub has a full line as well as a full line of Sandvik shafts. Instead of springs to spread floppers rubber pieces are still used. Labor costs were never low with respect to earnings. By the way, I saw dealer prices for the spearfishing gear. A 25 Euro knife has a dealer price of 7 Euros. Shafts are made on the automated milling and drilling line. Theeir wholesale cost is around 10 Euros outfitted with the flopper and a threaded butt end.

 

[popgun pete]

I used to have boxes of speartips, most were double floppers. A speartip I used to be able to buy for under 10 dollars now costs, if still available, over 50 dollars and sometimes more. A lot of spearfishing tips came from Spain and Italy at very low export prices, but rising costs eventually saw this period of low prices come to an end. Bear in mind this spans a period of 50 years and my first pneumatic gun cost 25 dollars brand new, a Nemrod "Comando". My Mares "Sten" cost 30 dollars. Exchange rates played a large part of the retail price of things that came from then low labour cost countries.

 

[vrokhlenko]

Diveinn | Online store for dive and snorkeling equipment

Online store of diving and snorkel equipment. Find at Diveinn neoprene suits, masks, fins, tubes | Best price.

www.scubastore.com

Still dirt-cheap

 

[popgun pete]

Diveinn | Online store for dive and snorkeling equipment

Online store of diving and snorkel equipment. Find at Diveinn neoprene suits, masks, fins, tubes | Best price.

www.scubastore.com

Still dirt-cheap

Too small for my use, OK for smaller prey and on shorter pneumatics, however that is a surprisingly low price compared to what Mares wanted for similar tips. Made in Spain?

 

[vrokhlenko]

In the European Union.
Check the whole selection:

Diveinn | Online store for dive and snorkeling equipment

Online store of diving and snorkel equipment. Find at Diveinn neoprene suits, masks, fins, tubes | Best price.

www.scubastore.com