Surface protocol problems with noseclip?

[Simos]

I've seen too many excellent DYN/DNF dives so far from top freelancers not ending up with a white card because when they come up hypoxic, they take off the goggles and forget to take off the noseclip before giving the ok sign.

I've always wondered why doesn't everyone just attach the goggles with a short string or something to the noseclip, so that when the goggles are pulled off the noseclip comes off too. I don't own a noseclip so I don't know if it's possible to pull it off like that but even if it doesn't come off, it will be a strong reminder to the diver that the noseclip should be taken off which I think would be really hard to ignore!

I've never seen the above done although it sounds like an obvious thing to do for me - am I missing something?
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[mermaidgirl]

it would work with a small swim, wire, ( speedo type) noseclip but a paradisia or trygons require more than just a tug.
I have been dq'd several times for the noseclip in cnf -bane of my existence! It has to be clamped on really tight so it does not fall off under pressure. Practicing the sp on every training dive supposedly ingrains into you- so it is automatic even when you are not quite lucid.

 

[Simos]

Yes I've tried both Trygons and paradisia - I know it can't just come off but still having it attached to the goggles should serve as a reminder. I've witnessed top divers that I am sure practise the surface protocol not remembering to take the noseclip off despite their coach shouting so attaching it to the goggles might spur someone into action.

Needless to say that if someone put their thinking cap on, I'm sure they can come up with a more elegant solution to just a string/wire attaching the two which could also take off trygons/paradisia. Anyway I was just wondering if something out there existed..
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[mermaidgirl]

I have never seen anyone use anything like that. I think it is more of function of not being able to recover within the 15 sec period , not taking those hook breaths, etc. Some people can almost b/o and still manage to get it together and make the sp. In depth comps, some people pull off the clip before they surface , eliminating the need to remove it- some people ( Guillaume Nery, Sara Campbell) don't wear goggles just a clip- less equip to bother with.
The pool World Championships are coming up this fall -maybe we will see some clip innovations- who knows!
http://www.europeevolutioncup.com/

 

[Simos]

Yesl most of the cases are borderline ie come up with a samba, shaking hand removes goggles and then gives ok sign, forgetting about the noseclip. You are right it's simpler with just the noseclip but I like seeing where I'm going then again I mostly use a mask lol and don't do comps!
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[trux]

As for pool competitions, the best solution is no mask, no goggles, and no nose clip - it has all the advantages you can think of:
- the ever best possible diving reflex
- no hassle during the SP (you only do 2/3 of the protocol, hence it is significantly easier and faster)
- no added drag
- no risk of mask/goggles flooding (which is often so disturbing for competitors that they chicken out and quit)
- you see pretty enough to keep yourself in the lane, and for making the turns properly, but not enough to be disturbed visually
- no risk to forget the mask/goggles/noseclip before/after the competition

 

[Simos]

Out of curiosity, what is the rationale of the rules on surface protocol? Why does the mask/noseclip/goggles need to be removed?

Sounds like a strange rule give that if you have a mask on you need to do a 3-part sp, goggles/clip you have to do 4 and with nothing you only need to do 2...
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[mermaidgirl]

for the official response please refer to the rules
Summary of the rules

it is basically to verify that the athlete is lucid and to maintain of standard of fairness amongst competitors.

 

[Simos]

Yes I've read the rules before mermaidgirl but what I am saying is that they don't seem to be fair for all competitors because the '3 simple things' that competitors have to do for SP can be in fact 2-4 steps...
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[trux]

Yes I've read the rules before mermaidgirl but what I am saying is that they don't seem to be fair for all competitors because the '3 simple things' that competitors have to do for SP can be in fact 2-4 steps...
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I agree. From this point of view, the SP at the French FFESSM is much more just: you have to remove the mask/goggles OR the nose-clip (not necessarily both of them), and if you use nor a nose-clip nor goggles/mask, you have to touch the tip of your nose prior the OK sign. It means there are always 3 tasks to do.

Since I do competitions without any facial equipment, I did it just this weekend in this way (touching my nose prior the OK sign) and got a red card for it. Only after protesting it was recognized it was all right in fact - the protocol starts with removing the facial equipment, and you can do whatever you want before the start of the SP. When you have no facial equipment, the protocol starts with the OK sign only, so I was perfectly right to touch my nose (though not obliged):

3.1.17.2
After resurfacing the athlete has 15.0 seconds to perform the Surface Protocol (SP). The SP has to be performed without any cues from the jury or the officials. The SP starts when the athlete begins to remove their facial equipment with their hand(s) from their face. In the case of the athlete not using facial equipment, the SP starts when the athlete gives the OK-sign to the judge.​

 

[Simos]

Yes makes sense to me Trux - was thinking along the same lines. I think it would make sense to ask competitors to remove anything that covers the nose ie you HAVE to remove the noseclip but not the goggles. My rationale is that since the rules state (if I'm right) that the airways need to be kept above the water during the SP, it would make sense that anything that goes over the airways would need to be remove so that the judges can see the airways.. It's an academic point I know since in 99+% of the cases the mouth would probably go in the water first but still...

I think maybe in the older days when the rules were different it must have made sense for the judges to be able to see the competitors eyes, but not sure if this still necessary? I guess you can still not get a White card if you are not looking directly at the judge so maybe it is necessary to remove goggles too. If that's the case maybe the protocol could be just to remove the goggles... Or that everyone has to do 4 steps... I guess the rules have to be encompassing a wider range of possibilities eg someone doing cwt with a snorkel in their mouth etc?
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[efattah]

At vertical blue 2008 I did my FRC competition dives with no goggles and no nose clip. This gave me a HUGE advantage in the surface protocol, I could come up with my hand in the ok sign and immediately say I'm ok.

I think the protocol is a bit weird in that it definitely gives an advantage if you don't use facial equipment.

A more fair protocol would not require you to remove any facial equipment but the signals/words/gestures/actions would be the same for everyone.

I still like the protocol rules in the official Blue Paper to AIDA, which Pete, Tyler and I composed in 2003 and which ultimately led to the surface protocol.

In our document, we proposed various protocols, but my favorite is the response protocol. The judge shows you his hand with one to four fingers extended. You must raise your hand and show the same number of fingers. This requires that you A) find the judge, and B) see how many fingers he is holding up and C) actually copy what he is doing. It is just as fair if you have goggles or not, but if you have Kerian type goggles where you can't see anything upon surfacing you would have to take off your goggles to see the judge.

 

[Simos]

Makes sense Eric and sounds fairer although it does sound like a slightly harder protocol - i like it though because it does involve more mental clarity than the current rules and will minimise the 'he got a White card but he wasn't ok' type of comments we currently have. The current protocol is something that can be practiced until it's almost an automatic action whereas the one you prefer would actually need you to be mentally present in addition to being physically capable of performing the protocol.

Out of curiosity, how did you dive without a noseclip? Did you hold your nose while descending and equalising?

I suppose you can still use a noseclip and take it off 20-30m from the surface on the ascent when there is less hypoxia at play and then as you say come up giving the ok sign right away...
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[efattah]

Out of curiosity, how did you dive without a noseclip? Did you hold your nose while descending and equalising?

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I pinched my nose during the descent. What is absolutely incredible, and still defies explanation, is that I found that pinching my nose with my hand, produced a much greater dive response than using a nose clip !!! Why on earth would that be.... the only thing I could think of is that pinching your nose is precarious, if you let go for even a second your sinuses flood. So maybe the fear/anxiety caused by the knowledge that if you let go you are screwed, perhaps this fear helped the dive reflex...

The main problem with diving and pinching your nose is that you spiral around the line during the sink phase (which for an FRC dive was the entire descent). One solution is to cross both arms against your chest to create a symmetrical form.

 

[MikkoP]

Attaching the goggles with a string to the noseclip is the standard Finnish strategy. It works well with paradisia too, you can just grab the noseclip and take both the clip and goggles off with one hand.

But I don't like to advertise this gimmick that much, as Finland has already gotten two Team World Championship medals when divers in the other teams have messed up their SPs by forgetting to remove their noseclips. :t

 

[Simos]

Shhhhh MikkoP, we'll keep it a secret lol
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[chrismar]

Phil Clayton here in NZ also does that. Works fine, but looks a bit silly when he has his goggles on his forehead and noseclip dangling in front of his face like a carrot

 

[BennyB]

I agree. From this point of view, the SP at the French FFESSM is much more just: you have to remove the mask/goggles OR the nose-clip (not necessarily both of them), and if you use nor a nose-clip nor goggles/mask, you have to touch the tip of your nose prior the OK sign. It means there are always 3 tasks to do.

Since I do competitions without any facial equipment, I did it just this weekend in this way (touching my nose prior the OK sign) and got a red card for it.

You probably got a red card because Simon didn't say "touch your nose". If Simon says touch your nose, then you have to do it.

 

[buddha]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sTzBcLvCs4]YouTube - ‪Eibar 2008 estatica‬‏[/ame]

Aiser Eraso from the khumbaka team used the noseclip attached to his googles.