Surfing, holding breath, freediving, age and the like ...

[flipp]

Hi, all: just found this forum and it looks like it could be of some help. I'm a surfer, 54 years old, and find myself increasingly struggling to hold my breath while being held down under waves. If possible, I would like to reverse this unfortunate trend.
I just did a static hold and stopped at the second contraction, 1 min 15 seconds. Add waves, exhaustion, fear, and no time for a deep breath, and you can reduce that number in the surf to about, oh, 10 or 15 seconds. Not good!
My question is, what's the best way to train to increase my capacity? I've read the How to Start Freediving thread and assume that's what I should be doing: the co2 and o2 tables. Right? In my case, which of the two should I spend most of my time on?
And at what point do you think I should start adding exertion to the equation?
And ... well, if you have any other thoughts, I'd certainly love to hear em. Maybe some stuff about relaxation and how to handle fear. I'm going to a land of big waves in a few months and wouldn't mind being better prepared.
Thanks!

 

[azapa]

Welcome flipp.

I can't say that you will get fast and easy results in your quest. Improving in freediving is:
- learning to completely relax before a dive (wouldn't work for you)
- learning to breath fully but normally before a dive (dito)
- using some stretching/breathing exercises to increase your lung volume (would do little for you)
- spending a lot of time in the water (you already do that)
- learning to enjoy/controll the U/W sensation (may work)

IMHO tables don't help too much, but some people swear by them.

I would bet though that a freediving course would help, so much knowledge packed in to a short time!

Even to this day, after 18 months quite regular practice, if i dive unprepared I would say that I would do as well or even worse than you rofl

 

[monkeyhatfork]

this is a tricky one but I'll give it a go. I grew up surfing in southern and central california so I can only speak to holdowns on waves of to about the 12ft range also a few decades younger so can't speak as to age. But as I see it the best way to be comfortable, is to get in the water as much as possible. Don't fight the hold down, you can't beat the ocean this will only drain energy, do as much stretching as possible, any breathhold excercises done on a regular basis will increase your comfort level with breatholds. But you may also want to try something without a rested recovery like apnea jogging(could walk also)-- example, start jogging, after 10-15 minutes when you have a good pace going start alternating between breaths and holding- example-- 10 sec breathing, 10 sec hold, repeat, but you can play around with those times, but keep the same pace. I grew up a block from the beach and whent out almost daily, at that time hold downs seemed almost fun and relaxing, now I live a bit inland and don't get to go out as much and always get a bit freaked out the first few till I get the hang of it again. Where are you going to surf? How Big? Reefbreak? I also find my comfort level increases quicker if I go without a leash in smaller or moderate surf so I have to chase the board around-reminds you, you can hold your own in this environment

 

[Bill]

Hi Flipp
I'll try to help. Back when I was your age I worried about getting old. Then someone explained that there was only one alternative and I stopped worrying. The tables will help and so will aerobic conditioning but working on the mental aspect is the most important. You have to believe that with a little instruction and a few practice sessions you could double your static times. That will help but specific training will do a lot more. It seems to me that you could modify two known training methods of ours to your benefit.
This will sound like 'opposite/backwards' training but I've thought about it ever since I saw the Hawaiin surfers running on the bottom holding big rocks. Since you are comfortable in the water training dry will be safer.
1 You're not going to be rested and training should be specific, so take a gentle walk in the park and take a little time to visualize your prep for surfing.
2 When you are now (in your mind) sitting waiting for the right wave increase your speed or jog a little to simulate catching and riding the wave.
3 Dump your body onto the ground to pretend that the wave just won.
4 Tell yourself to relax and hold your breath for 15 seconds.
5 Go back to 2 and repeat for 8 reps while adding 5 seconds to each hold.
6 If you fail on a hold time, take 5 seconds off the last successful time for the next and complete the 8 reps.
IMHO
Aloha
Bill

 

[trux]

Just a note, that you know from who the last advice came. Bill Graham is in his age of 68 the holder of the US national record for static apnea, with the official time of 7:21 (and he already did above 8 minutes in training).

As for tables, I believe that they would work for you quite well. Their advantage is that they are very well reproducible, so you can easily follow your progress. The main advantage is not really some physiological adaptation, but rather improving of your technique and relaxation skills.

Besides the classical CO2 tables, and besides the simulation exercises Bill advised, you can also try an extreme CO2 table - for example repeating a constant breath-hold (i.e. 45s) with only one single exhale and inhale between the apneas, during 8 or 10 minutes. Make the first attempt with a short apnea (i.e. 30s), but try to keep it always at least 30s at the subsequent breath-holds in the series. If you feel it is too easy, you can add a few seconds at the next one, but you should never go down. At the last apnea in the series, you should have contractions almost during the entire breath-hold, but you should try to relax despite them (not fighting them, but rather going along with them)
I believe that for you especially the CO2 tables would be interesting, since when surfing, your body is already hypercapnic (loaded with CO2), so you do not really fight hypoxia (low O2), but rather hypercapnia (high CO2). With hypercapnic tables you will learn to endure more contractions, and also manage to decontract better despite them and despite the stress or panic.

During the tables you have time to watch your own body reactions, and you will learn that you can endure quite a lot of contractions. It is necessary to think positively about them - they save your life. And the same goes for the feeling of distress or panic - in fact all these aspects are quite positive, because they set the organism into a better oxygen saving mode.

Also empty lungs series are an excellent exercise for improving your psychical endurance - when you start doing empty lungs apneas over 1 or 2 minutes, you will be much less afraid when a wave surprises you without full lungs. You can also combine empty lung apnea with hypocapnic exercises - empty lung CO2 tables. I have such exercises in my Training Manager too.

 

[Bill]

Thanks for the kind words Trux but, for the record, Deron stole the record, back. Hopefully it's just temporary.

 

[flipp]

wow, thanks for all the great advice. i'm especially fond of bill's suggestion that i flop to the ground to simulate a wipe out and am greatly looking forward to doing that on my strolls around the neighborhood. the people here think i'm a nut already, this will cement my reputation, thank you very much.:friday

where i'm going is the maldives. the breaks themselves are pretty heavy but they're reefs, i believe, so there must be channels to hang loose in while i catch my breath and try to calm my nerves. then again, it might not be all that hairy. i went on a peru surf trip last year and anticipated a good pummeling but the waves broke and peeled with such machinelike consistency that even on the biggest day i felt fairly comfortable. but then i ended up in tortola, at kane garden bay, on a big day and got the trashing of my life. it just seemed to go on forever. and i knew i was being pushed toward rocks. and the fear rose up. and that's the last major wipe out i took, so it's the one upper most in my wee memory banks. and there it lingers.

so, obviously, i do have to work on some of the psychological aspects. meanwhile, you've given me a number of great ideas for ways to get at least somewhat more comfortable with hold downs. and for that, once again, i thank you.

 

[Pav]

There are a few surfers here! , check the spearfishing threads. Most of us I guesse fustrated by flat days grabbed a spear, mask and snorkel. At least thats how I started.

I think the surfing is different. The breath hold is not prepared for.

I had a similar situation to you. I started getting into the habit of counting during a hold down to relax.

Maybe worth trying similar or watch the other surfers and count how long they are down for. I think it will be less than you expect and you will paddle out more relaxed knowing, and which in itself should increase you breath hold! I think you would be very unlucky to be held down for over 30 seconds (i reckon that equates to 2 waves). My worse was 2 waves whilst surfing in Morroco and doubt it was longer than 30 seconds max.

Having said that I'm surfing within my limits and know what to expect... most of the time! Sometimes you have to walk away. I do surf larger waves on pointbreaks, but I know the channel is never far away!

Goodluck with the trip.

 

[flipp]

thanks, pav!

but riddle me this. how does one progress using the co2 table? i've been doing it once a day using half my max but at some point do you retest your max and move up the half point or do you just move that point up by a few seconds every once in a while?

 

[monkeyhatfork]

if you can complete a table its time to move to the next one, til you come to one you can't complete, work on it and as soon as you can do it , move on again, if the table is easy it wont do much for you other than maintain your ability to do that hold.

 

[flipp]

Thanks -- that makes sense and helps a lot.

 

[Lockedin]

Flipp,

The tables have really helped me. Diving (I climb the kelp in my area) helps as well. And of course, just gettin' wet!

 

[oceankyle]

Signed up for this forum to get some information on breath hold/comfortableness underwater to supplement my surfing.

How did this work out flipp?

Thoughts still the same on this subject?

 

[ReefTroll]

I grew up on the coast, (Gold Coast Australia) and am no stranger to large waves and being held under.
One thing I always found that helped was to set myself under the water, prepared to wait out a wave or two. When I was down there I'd look backward, out to sea, under water on the bottom, and watch the sets coming. (In case set is a local terms, what we call a set is the "group of waves that always seem to roll in with each other) and then just watch them roll over.
This removed the whole "Can I surface yet" fears, and I knew what was coming and when. I know this won't help with surfing due to the board pulling you up, but maybe going bodysurfing, or just swimming, and hitting the bottom to watch a few sets roll over can help. I find it relaxed me also and I just waited out the time for the waves and my thoughts were not focussed on my breath, or lack-there-of. Just an idea.

 

[oceankyle]

I grew up on the coast, (Gold Coast Australia) and am no stranger to large waves and being held under.
One thing I always found that helped was to set myself under the water, prepared to wait out a wave or two. When I was down there I'd look backward, out to sea, under water on the bottom, and watch the sets coming. (In case set is a local terms, what we call a set is the "group of waves that always seem to roll in with each other) and then just watch them roll over.
This removed the whole "Can I surface yet" fears, and I knew what was coming and when. I know this won't help with surfing due to the board pulling you up, but maybe going bodysurfing, or just swimming, and hitting the bottom to watch a few sets roll over can help. I find it relaxed me also and I just waited out the time for the waves and my thoughts were not focussed on my breath, or lack-there-of. Just an idea.

Thanks for the response. We say sets here too! Our water is too polluted to see anything underwater though. I'm not really sure that relaxation is my issue. I've started supplementing by using the tables, It seems like these would help you even if you don't get a full breath.

 

[hank49]

I don't think practicing breath hold tables will help you be able to stay down longer after going over the falls on the set of the day.
The difference is that before free diving, you get relaxed as possible before the dive. When surfing, you may have just paddled out after a wave and lo and behold, here comes the set of the day, and after paddling your ass off to get over the first 2, the 3rd one catches you and down you go.
To be prepared for this, being in better cardio shape (running) would be the best, I think. You can surf a nice point break and catch a wave every 20 minutes or so but not get a real cardio workout. You need fast recovery.
My buddy runs. When we dive with no current,, he can stay down a bit longer than I can. When we're swimming against current, he can stay down a LOT longer than I can. He's in better shape.

 

[oceankyle]

That's an interesting take on it. Hard to find a definitive answer

I know I'm in fairly decent shape, surf often, paddle the whole dam time cuz its a beach break and short period swells most of the time.

But I can't hold my breath well at all! tested my breath holds and 60 seconds is my best.

 

[cdavis]

Hi oceankyle, welcome to DB.

People vary in their tolerance to C02 levels. My tolerance is lousy, sounds like maybe yours is too. Three things help. 1. get in real good cardio shape, 2. do tables with exercise to simulate the conditions of a hold down 3. get very relaxed about hold downs. Visualize a hold down as you are doing tables. Training as close as possible to real world conditions is key in breath holding. Combine relaxation with exercise and tables and you can get fairly close to the real world. Know that practice will work for you.

Connor

 

[hank49]

Run up and down the stairs three times, then hold your breath as long as you can.

 

[cdavis]

Sounds about right,and visualize a mega wave hold down complete with sharp coral while you relax during that breath hold.

Nobody ever said it was easy.

Connor