Swimming and Diving at FRV

[anthropisces]

I once swam FRV in the pool. I didn't have any specific reason for doing so. I had a spotter. I just wanted to mix up my routine a bit so I swam FRV.

I discussed FRV in the pool with other divers and one highly trained and knowledgeable fellow told me not to do it. It seems like reasonable advice since in the event of a blackout my first inclination will be to suck water into my lungs.

For those of you doing FRV, what are your reasons for using this diving techninque?

 

[azapa]

There are many great threads on here that cover FRV. It is important to understand what FRV really, to make it repeatable too, so you can train with it. It is a very useful tool for training, and safe (if with buddy) when done well. In general though it is an advanced technique, that I would recommend you do after basic freedive training. If done wrong, you can hurt yourself.

Where would I use it?
- pool technique without suit or lead (to enable a nice position in a pool without dragging tons of lead there)
- depth equalization training, emulating more depth than is really available (or wanted) to equalize with - it is easy to hurt yourself doing this

general - to enable a harder and faster dive response.

 

[growingupninja]

Murat does some really cool work with FRC, but remember he was a world class full lung diver before he started experimenting with FRC diving.

Exhale is a high risk training technique used to prepare for higher risk dives in the ocean. FRC is a relative term, but it is basically exhale diving. Underwater samba or BO with exhale work could be lethal in seconds--much faster than a buddy could get your airway to the surface, even in just a swimming pool.

I know my worst case limits (pre-samba, measureable low O2 threshhold) by having done dry, high exertion, full exhale dynamics in series over multiple weeks (this time is far less than my max static breathhold). In the pool, I keep exhale dives to a fraction of that worst case limit. I don't do full exhale in the ocean but will do mild FRC sometimes to deal with 5mm suit bouyancy when I need to swim through extremely shallow, dense kelp.

 

[flamencoguru]

I can see the reason for doing it in the ocean on a line but I don't see any logical reason or purpose to do these in the pool while doing dynamics for several reasons:

1. Won't have much buoyancy (lead won't cause too much drag, you're splitting hairs at this point)
2. No urge to breathe due to not enough CO2 build up.
3. Body response will be to immediately go to terminal gasp and attempt to inhale (not good... you'll be underwater)
4. FRCs are not designed for dynamic pool training. The are for deep equalization technique training. Correctly performed FRCs are very short dives...

Just a reminder how dangerous they are, there is a Czech fellow that has been in a coma for the last 3 years because he was doing FRCs with dynamic training... He immediately vacuumed the bottom of the pool. Very sad indeed.

Be safe out there guys!

 

[cdavis]

Lots of misunderstanding and mis-statements in the above. What kind of exhale you are talking about makes a huge difference in application,characteristics and safety. The nomenclature we use to describ exhale diving is imprecise and many people don't understand the different approaches to exhale. Diving full exhale, or even full forced exhale, reverse pac, yada yada, is tricky, has a dicey blackout record and, IMHO is good for training only. Diving exhale about half lung is a great and quite safe way to dive reacreationally. Takes some getting used to and slow progression to understand how your body reacts and to get back to full lung performance, but, if you do that, it feels wonderful, easy diving, much longer dives, faster recovery, overall much better way to dive. If you understand and accept the physiology as described by S. Murat, its also safer, by a lot. I certainly feel more clear headed after long deepish dives. It does substantially reduce your depth limits and that takes a long time to get back and requires practice to maintain.

Disclaimer: I've been diving about 1/2 lung for years, from 20 to 100 ft and love it. Haven't taken a full breath in a long time. Murat is right.

 

[growingupninja]

Yes, I agree Connor, true FRC has worked very well for some people. Nomenclature is a probelm though--I have seen people refer on DB to what would medically be FRC as 'exhale' (they later clarified), while a more conservative approach is to label any sort of exhale whatsoever (including 'proper' FRC) as extremely dangerous. In reality, guys who are regularly diving in fitted 7mm wetsuits are diving at noticeably less than full lung.

 

[azapa]

a big issue in FRC is definition and reproducibility. Dive to dive, unless you are careful and experienced, you can vary carried volume by a few liters, with quite different effects on EQ, buoyancy, comfort and DR.

 

[cdavis]

With all due respect, I disagree. Getting the same level of inhale(exhale) may take some practice. At first it can be variable, unless you have a good marker, like passive exhale or full inhale using diaphragm only (what I do). But for practical diving purposes, it gets pretty easy and automatic to leave the surface with the same amount of air after you have been doing it for a while. This is an issue that really demonstrates why you need to explore exhale/half lung/FRC diving slowly and carefully.

 

[flamencoguru]

Lots of misunderstanding and mis-statements in the above. What kind of exhale you are talking about makes a huge difference in application,characteristics and safety. The nomenclature we use to describ exhale diving is imprecise and many people don't understand the different approaches to exhale. Diving full exhale, or even full forced exhale, reverse pac, yada yada, is tricky, has a dicey blackout record and, IMHO is good for training only. Diving exhale about half lung is a great and quite safe way to dive reacreationally. Takes some getting used to and slow progression to understand how your body reacts and to get back to full lung performance, but, if you do that, it feels wonderful, easy diving, much longer dives, faster recovery, overall much better way to dive. If you understand and accept the physiology as described by S. Murat, its also safer, by a lot. I certainly feel more clear headed after long deepish dives. It does substantially reduce your depth limits and that takes a long time to get back and requires practice to maintain.

Disclaimer: I've been diving about 1/2 lung for years, from 20 to 100 ft and love it. Haven't taken a full breath in a long time. Murat is right.

I think the original post was to address the "purpose" of FRCs during dynamic apnea. No one is arguing that they are an effective training tool for deeper diving and equalization but the issue lies when people implement them just by reading stuff on the internet (like what we are doing) and believe it is safe...

I discourage all of my students to try stuff that they've read about unless they have someone that is truly trained. I understand the science behind it but I would not say that what Murat is doing is for the masses... He is one and unique (I still am a firm believer that he is really running a risk by doing extended dives exhaled). The majority of freedivers on this board are recreational. Why jeopardize safety for what appears to be a small advantage for freediving?? I would never do my regular diving exhaled. There is no reason for it. I've done FRCs under direct supervision of some bad ass freedivers and followed their instruction to the T.

 

[cdavis]

The question in the original post was:

"For those of you doing FRV, what are your reasons for using this diving techninque?"

Further, why would you assume that diving exhale in the correct circumstances is unsafe or only conveys a small advantage? Increasing comfortable dive time by over 20 percent in a diver that is well trained to start with is not IMHO a "small" advantage. In a lot of years of looking for better performance, the only thing I ever found that had that much effect was my PFI course. Making the diving experience substantially more enjoyable and easier is also no small advantage. Diving 1/2 lung does that.

On the safety issue, Murat's physiological logic is very hard to argue with. If you buy the logic, recreational diving around 1/2 lung with the proper technique is substantially safer than full lung. My personal experience strongly suggests (but does not prove) that it is.

Having used Murat's stuff for years in a wide range of depths and conditions, I am quite sure that the technique is "for the masses" if they are willing to make the effort and time to learn how.

I learned exhale technique off the internet, with some critical on line help from Laminar. Not the best way to learn, but it works.

Connor

 

[flamencoguru]

The question in the original post was:

"For those of you doing FRV, what are your reasons for using this diving techninque?"

Further, why would you assume that diving exhale in the correct circumstances is unsafe or only conveys a small advantage? Increasing comfortable dive time by over 20 percent in a diver that is well trained to start with is not IMHO a "small" advantage. In a lot of years of looking for better performance, the only thing I ever found that had that much effect was my PFI course. Making the diving experience substantially more enjoyable and easier is also no small advantage. Diving 1/2 lung does that.

On the safety issue, Murat's physiological logic is very hard to argue with. If you buy the logic, recreational diving around 1/2 lung with the proper technique is substantially safer than full lung. My personal experience strongly suggests (but does not prove) that it is.

Having used Murat's stuff for years in a wide range of depths and conditions, I am quite sure that the technique is "for the masses" if they are willing to make the effort and time to learn how.

I learned exhale technique off the internet, with some critical on line help from Laminar. Not the best way to learn, but it works.

Connor

Fair enough on the original question... Although, he did mention that he was doing dynamics... That was my intent to answer fully.. I believe he started doing the FRCs in the pool due to what he read here on the board.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree... I too had my biggest gains through the education received from FII.... I still would argue that exhaled diving is not for the masses, but we could go forever debating it. I've learned from some pretty awesome freedivers that are very aware and familiar with the science behind all of this and the pros and cons of actually implementing the science. Again, we're talking about recreational freediving.

What are the disadvantages of full inhalation (not packing) diving on a recreational level?

 

[growingupninja]

Fair enough on the original question... Although, he did mention that he was doing dynamics... That was my intent to answer fully.. I believe he started doing the FRCs in the pool due to what he read here on the board.

You care a great deal about the safety of your students and all divers in general (same as everyone else who reads and posts here), Errol, but many advanced divers and I would venture to say nearly all current and past world record holders got there through careful self-experimentation, research, and the willing help of more experienced divers. Honest and open discussion moves tne sport forward in terms of both safety and performance. We have a responsibilty of course to be very careful and accurate in our reports and opinions, but I fear to see valid aspects of freediving and this resource watered down 'for the masses'.

 

[azapa]

I don't believe FRV should be shown/taught to beginners. In fact it should be discouraged until medium/advanced levels. It is not for everyone (I seem to be disagreeing with Connor again...

the critical difference is chance of injury. A fully inhaled beginner will have ear pain before he gets deep enough to damage his chest or trachea. A FRV beginner will damage his Chest or Trachea before he runs out of EQ. Chest and Trachea injuries occur with no pain during the instance they happen, ears are obvious.

Lets say most inhale divers can EQ to Residual Volume, or 25 to 30m average. You get a bunch of beginners out on a reef at those kind of depths, one of which has heard or seen that FRV is the way to dive, and you have a problem waiting to happen.

 

[esom]

"should/should not be tought to beginners" seems like something, that can easily be discussed. This ease disrespects the students as well as the teachers that are âctually ment, when such statements are made. Those are the only people, that are present and both have by far more meaningful* and integrated categories at hand, than "beginner", "freediving", "lung volume", "risk" and so on.
- not to mention the different ideas of "Freediving" people can have, which produce any "risk", "sense", "joy", "funktionality" of not full diving according to these very differences.

*for the process of learning, of course

 

[ThomasB]

I don't believe FRV should be shown/taught to beginners.

Cut

Lets say most inhale divers can EQ to Residual Volume, or 25 to 30m average. You get a bunch of beginners out on a reef at those kind of depths, one of which has heard or seen that FRV is the way to dive, and you have a problem waiting to happen.

it seems a bit unfair. You re blaming people wrong behaviour and not the technique itself. Using this logic your last sentence can be used against full lung freediving as well. Just imagine a bunch of non trained kids at sea, one of which has seen a video of full lung freediving. You might have a problem there too.

 

[cdavis]

Heavens! agree with azapa? Thats no fun, but I got to admit, hes got a point. Not sure I follow all his logic, but squeeze is a real issue with exhale diving, including diving around 1/2 lung, painful personal experience. That is one of the main reasons to go slow into exhale diving

To the question:

"What are the disadvantages of full inhalation (not packing) diving on a recreational level? "

Question is a little difficult because there is such a wide variety of recreational diving, exhale styles and diving conditions. Lets assume easy conditions, no factors like current that require lots of exertion on the surface, reasonable depths, less than 30 m, and not too much wetsuit, lung inflation somewhere around 1/2 lung,the conditions I dive exhale in. Further assume that the diver has done enough exhale diving that he(or she) is adapted to it.

Compared to 1/2 lung diving,full lung has two very noticeable disadvantages. First is shorter comfortable dives, especially shorter bottom time, where it really counts. Compared to full lung, I'm doing comfortable dives 20-30 percent longer, bottom time approachs double. Most, if not all divers operating at around 1/2 lung report the same tendency. Second is ease and exertion of the dive. Diving full lung requires fighting buoyancy to get down to neutral. With 1/2 lung diving, a good surface dive and a couple of lazy, very soft kicks and you are on your way. The rest of the descent is a drift. Depending on the conditions, the trip up can be less effort because there is so much less relative buoyancy change with depth. The exertion factor is one that isn't obvious to a full lung diver because he's never done anything else. Dive exhale for a while, then switch back to full lung and the swim down is down right obnoxious. I was astonished the first time I did that with a 3mil suit on.

A third, and hard to quantify disadvantage of full lung compared to 1/2 lung is mind set and pace. Learning to go slow and relax is critical to long productive dives, not to mention important for spearfishing. While it is quite possible to learn to slow down while full lung diving, it isn't easy and many divers never get there. I certainly wasn't very good at it. By its very nature, exhale diving forces the diver to slow down. Its just somehow "nicer" as well as more productive and longer. Like I said, hard to quantify.

Finally there is safety. If you buy Seb Murats physiology interpretation, full lung diving should be substantially more likely to result in a B0. I've seen 3 B0s during full lung recreational diving, know, through DB, a fair number of divers operating at around 1/2 lung, none of whom have had any problem and most, if not all, report being more clear headed. This in no way constitutes proof, far too small a sample, but my experience and the experience of other 1/2 lung divers leads me to agree with Seb.

Connor

Something important I forgot. Strength of dive reflex makes a huge difference in the relative effectiveness of exhale vs full lung diving. Poor dive reflex and full lung may well work better. Strong dive reflex and 1/2 lung wins by miles. Dive reflex can be trained(my experience), but is also very much geneticly determined. Mine is middling, training helps a lot.

 

[azapa]

i think as an instructor you have to take a decision according to who you are training. there is so much to learn as a beginner that I think this would be an unnecessary an step. just my opinion.

Thomas: I don't get your example. Given a bunch of beginners with the same safety training, on a reef, one lot exposed to FRV diving, one lot only to full lung, and as far as my logic goes, you will have more probability of accidents in the first group.

On a personal note I love FRV and it is key in my depth training. Some pool too. It took me three years to get to the point it actually helped, rather than just cause problems.

 

[cdavis]

Monitors, do we have a troll here?