Tables - more info/detail required

[Siku]

I just started doing tables and my max is not very good, but its already up 20% so I'm adjusting the tables and I'm not sure if I'm doing them in the best way...

1) How often should I do them? How important is it to rest for a day?

2) What's the reason for not doing the O2 table AND the CO2 table on the same day?

3) The tables Akoni sets out in the 'How to Start Freediving' thread have 8 breath holds in them, and I've noticed other tables seem to stick to that. Anything sacred about 8?

4) I presume breathe normally during vents to keep gas exchange normal - i.e. don't rectify the O2 loss/CO2 gain?

5) How often should I go for a new max? Seems easiest after doing a table, when I'm low on O2 and high on CO2

6) CO2 table:
Akoni suggest 8 x holds: 50% max hold time (M)
alternating with 7 x vents: 75% M decreasing to 30% M

- Should I keep these proportions as my max goes up? Or just up the holds and keep the vent times as they were?
- Is there a min safe vent time? (Akoni's table bottoms out at 1:00 vent rather than going to 45" for the last vent).

7) O2 table
8 x holds: 30% M increasing to 80% M
7 x vents: 65% M

- Similar question really.. keep the proportions? or keep the vents down to 2:00 as my max improves? (or less if 65%M > 2:00?)

8) Does any of this really matter? Am I being too anal or is it just better to be doing something than nothing - whatever feels right I guess? ALL thoughts and ideas very welcome.

9) I can't see how the tables differ really - I mean obviously I can in terms of the pattern, but both increase the proportion of hold to vent over half and hour or so. How is one increasing CO2 and the other decreasing O2? It looks to me like both would do both? Anyway that's just a theory question for interest, practical advice is more important!

Thanks

 

[Simos]

Hi again Siku - wow lots of questions I know little about tables as i dont like using them but I'll treat it as trivia and give some answers, take them with a pinch of salt and I'd love to see others' answers... Here we go:

1&2 It's important to rest as far as I know - the body/blood needs rest time for the adaptations to take place. I'd think of it a bit like a gym workout - training the same muscles every day won't help and might even have detrimental effects.

3. Yes you get bored to death over 8 nothing sacred as such but too few and they won't be enough workload to make a difference and too many will be over training. Not sure if there are safety considerations..

4. Yes - it's important not to hyperventilate for example when doing a co2 table as the whole point is to build a co2 load

5. You mean a max hold? Might be too much to do both tables and max attempt on the same day but depends on how tough the tables are etc an easy/medium table might be a good warmup for a max. Some people like to just do max attempts with little or no warmup. In theory the tables allow you to train specific aspects (eg co2 tolerance) without needing a max attempt.

6&7 don't know on top of my head

8 really good question - some things do matter eg not hyperventilating while venting on co2 tables and overtraining. My personal opinion is that, as a beginner, none of the rest matter too much. The reason being that your limitation is probably co2 tolerance so any type of breathholding will help initially - I wouldn't bother with o2 tables at first, just do co2 and then after a while you can move to a ratio of 3:1 (co2 to o2). The single most important thing to work on is relaxation and body awareness...

9. They are different, in one case your shortening the rest period thus not allowing enough time for your body to get rid of all the co2 (thus building a co2 load) and in the second case you are making the holds longer thus becoming more hypoxic with each longer hold. However having said that, I do think (and I stand to be corrected of course) that with a low co2 tolerance the o2 table basically becomes co2 training anyway (hence not much point in doing the o2 table initially)

probably a lot of the above are wrong
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[Siku]

Thanks again Simos!

1-5: all makes good sense

6&7: Any other ideas on this please forum? I'm sure at the high peformance/record breaking end of things the subtle differences in training programs make a big difference. No doubt its shrouded in secrecy :hmm

8&9 For a newbie like me probably not so important to be scientific. Good point about training for CO2 at first! and then gradually introducing O2 tables. So far I've found the CO2 table easy - 50% is only 1:15 for me and that's no bother, 7 venting periods of 2:00 down to 30" didn't seem to make it much harder.

I may push it up to 1:45 with rests of 1:45 down to 15"...? Just bought the manual of freediving on Amazon, maybe that will shed some light.

 

[Simos]

I think regarding the CO2 tables: no need to push the time you are holding up too much. Just decrease the rest time - 2 mins sounds long to me given that the holds are only 1:15 each. You can start decreasing that until you get to a point where you feel they are getting challenging (or that you are getting a headache!). Having said that I did have a quick look at some tables I have and actually and 2 mins sounds like it's on the hard side, so you seem to be doing pretty well! Maybe try 1:30 holds and 2min rest (starting) and if again it's too easy then decrease the starting hold to 1:45. Also interestingly the tables i have also bottom out at about 1-1:15.

Regarding safety for the CO2 tables: as you should not be hypoxic, it should be ok if you stick within the recommended hold/vent times/rounds. Hypercapnic blackouts do exist too but I believe they are more rare. Obviously do the tables dry and best to be at a comfortable position so that if you were to black out you won't hurt yourself (having said that lots can go wrong if you black out like swallowing your tongue although you'll most likely just 'wake up'). Make sure you are relaxed and you don't push yourself to the limit. If possible, do the tables when there is someone else around. Most importantly, wait until you do the course and ask a qualified instructor and take his advice, not mine! Marcus and Sam have a lot of experience so I am sure they can give you some really solid advice on all these...

By the way, you don't need to decrease by 15' each time, if you start lower you can obviously decrease by less - the whole point (as i understand it at least) is that the rest period should not be long enough for you to be able to recover fully...

By the way - regarding your point #2: I don't know the exact reason, there is another threat on here by someone pretty good (Eric) that is asking the same question, not seen an answer that makes sense so far. The manual of freediving says the same thing (not to do them both on the same day) but no reason as far as i remember...

When is your course by the way?

 

[Siku]

Well I am getting mild headaches (that tend to hang around for some time) so even though each hold feels easy I suppose I must be pushing my body.

In the tables that bottom out at 1:00, how long are the holds?

I take the points about saftey. I wonder if black out happens without warning? The CO2 tables I'm doing never take me to that bursting-to-take-a-breath point that max attempts do, so I feel MILES away from BO. Illusion?

I'll press on, gently, and keep reading and asking... I wish the hadbook would show up, its been a few weeks!

I signed up for day 1 Notanx course on 6th Nov. You train with them don't you?

 

[Erki]

Its good to vary the tables and do not think too much about %. Just adjust the tables so that they are propery challenging but not mentally frustrating. 4 tables per week should be ok for beginning, plus some cardio training, stretching, relaxation...

 

[Simos]

Never had a blackout so can't tell you: from what I know there are usually signs that people tend to ignore but there also cases where there are no signs whatsoever (that one can remember at least). I think it's quite unlikely to black out from a CO2 table... loss of relaxation is usually a bad signs when it comes to these things.
I do train with notanx - it's such an awesome club! I do help out occasionally with courses but don't think I'll be able to make it on the course you are taking...
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