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Technosprt 6.75mm Shaft Combo question

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Sheeww, Murat it's too early for me to think about all that, I'll take your word for it

Mark
 
Thanks Mark. I was pretty much a pneumatic user as well - I had both Mares and my fav - the Nemrod Torpedero (It was old then!)- which was really a very nicely balanced gun though when I was a kid I had to do forearm exercises to pull the trigger The strange line catch arrangement also caused the shaft to arch off the moment it lost it's energy.

I'm definitely with you on the maneuverability issue - you have to kind of swim behind long guns - and this only works in very clear water. Trade off is getting good at sneakage.

FYI - average summer visibility here seems to be 8-10 meters. 3 is the absolute worst I've seen.

If you've time could you expound upon the virtues of open/closed muzzles?

Thanks again!

PS - both the weight vest and Alien have grown on me - though I still manage to get them off for work.
 
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It seems a lot of people got started with pneumatics, I never had a Nemrod but I had a Technisub 40 and then I was promoted by my parents to a 50 Medisten and finally my last one the Cressi SL 70 which could actually shoot decently compared to the small ones. You're talking about 20-30ft then...I would maybe consider a 90cm, but if more often than not it's 15ft or less you will enjoy the shorter gun.

Open/Closed Muzzles:

Spearguns seem to follow trends and people just keep reinventing the same wheel every few years. The first open muzzles were popularized in Hawaii by a guy name Brian Yoshikawa who among other things is/was a great BWH who dove back in the day with the likes of Jay Riffe and Terry Maas for giant tuna off MX. Who of the three's idea it was first I'm not sure, but Brian says it was his so I believe him Among other things, the open muzzle design was the only way to let those huge 3/8"x72" shafts with sharkfins and 5 bands pass through the muzzles without problems. For that extreme aplpication a closed muzzle would not work, and the benefit of the stronger shark fin shafts in place of the slotted/notched shafts, ideal for 95% of spearfishing except that, was seen as virtue for huge fish that could break them at the notches. It was also obviously the only way to load all those bands with soft wishbones.

Anyhow, to make a long story short that's why those muzzles first became popular among wooden gun builders and do it yourselfers since the easiest way to make a muzzle in a speargun is by drilling out a slot in the front of the gun for the bands. The parallel band pull and the other virtues of closed muzzles were not big considerations then, just like proper balance, effects or recoil, rotational forces etc etc. weren't properly applied in the guns either. This "open muzzle" idea spread into a few production guns and then about 8 years ago or so it even caught the attention of European spearos again whom, copying the big fish wood gun concept in America and adapting it to a slimmer version for their own markets, popularized it once again. Totemsub, a wooden gun guy popular in Europe now, for example basically copied it and ran with it first in his line as he repopularized the wooden gun cult too. And now this concept is seen on a lot of newer production guns as well, like some Omer's for ex. In a nutshell that's kind of the history behind the open muzzle.

In practical terms an open muzzle is not necessarily advantageous over a closed muzzle. The pros:
-you have a clear line of sight, the ability to use a shark finned shaft without worrying about it clearing the muzzle, ability to squeeze multiple bands together, also the cheapest and most simple way to make a speargun muzzle.
Cons:
The bands don't pull strait in line with the shaft, you should install a track to ensure the shaft is leaving the gun perfectly strait, less efficient band pull, and the reason I don't like it on single band guns is that it's an extra step every time to secure the shaft in the front of the gun with the line so it doesn't move.
Pro's of a closed muzzle:
-It's the fastest system for reloading a gun in a hurry, the shaft is pulled strait and make the most of the power of the bands, it nulls the need for a shaft guide that makes noise when the shaft goes sliding down the track potentially scaring fish. Easy to get used to and puts less wear and tear friction on the bands. Best system for a single powerful band of 100lbs+pull.
One band does all system.
Cons:
Can only used specifically after market shark fin shafts like the LP ones designed for it and all notched shafts. Can tangle the shooting line loop around the bands (called "la boulette" by the French) if you're not paying attention and don't keep the shooting line snug and running parallel down the shaft as it exits the muzzle. Not as clear of a line of sight. Ideal design for single bands only.

Hope this helps

-Mark
 
Reactions: feign
Great Answer! Thanks.

The Nemrod Torpedero replaced my first gun - A voit - now JBL Carbine. This was, near as I can recall, a completely worthless speargun.

The torpedero fired a very heavy 3/8 shaft and had a primitive trigger mechanism that caught the shaft at the muzzle. Thus the line slider went about 1/3 of the way down the shaft - with predictable results. Still it had great power over a short range and was very well balanced for close quarters.
The other was a mid-handle mares - very short and very poorly balanced - it was back heavy and nearly impossible to aim. Better trigger and general technology however.

Back then a good day in lake michigan meant fifteen foot visibility - now it is normally 30 or more and fifteen feet is a 'bad' day I've been thinking around 90cm is about right.

Just started looking into the Euro style guns. I liked their balance as a kid - though I had some ridiculously large ones for these waters. I also like the Riffes - but they are really expensive for how often I'll be likely to have use for it.

You can probably tell - it's been awhile since I've done any spearfishing!
 
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Mark if you want to have all the advantages of open muzzle and closed muzzle together, you should take a look at what i did to my omer's muzzles Probably i am not the first one trying this in the world but it was great mod. and worked for me, thats all matters rofl
 
FINAL VERDICT
Just tried out my gun with the 6.75 shaft and the picasso 21mm rubbers. MAtch made in heaven, very powerful and dead accurate. I guess the rail i had installed also helps. I also tried the 18 mm bands, In My opinion they give more or less the same power you would get using 16mm bands with the 6.5mm shaft. These picasso rubbers are very good, they fit in nicely not too tough to load, and VERY powerful, i am normally more content using a single band. My next project would be to install them on one of these new excalibur 3000 maybe in a 110-115 length, if i could get my hands on it. cheers
 
Fondue - I'm not sure how handy you are but perhaps you would consider making a yourself a wooden gun ? That is if you don't need one in a hurry (speaking from experience....).
The design of a gun can be fairly basic - just a laminated stock, buy the bulk rubber, buy a trigger, buy a few shafts etc and have a play with the shaping and balancing. Alot of fun and rewarding and it makes you think more about spearguns and you start looking at other designs more closely. Cheers
Ed
 
Fondue,

Portinfer and I have don't see eye to eye on this one

Even if its not an Omer gun you eventually settle on (you're loss ) get a stock speargun to start off. Band guns are so good these days there's no reason to make you own unless you're 100% sure of your ability to meet all the requirements of a balanced speargun and have access to the parts and machines needed to do so. I don't know if you read my article on spearguns that was published on Deeper Blue a while back but search it and check it out since there's quite a bit of considerations.

At one point and eventually after owning a few stock guns you can always try, after all it sounds fun, but I wouldn't start off spearfishing again with a home made gun. I've been at this for 20 years and still don't feel qualified to make one, not only because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but also because I'll never have access to the proper machines, tools, and speargun parts that companies do to make one right without reiventing the wheel.

A stock 90cm speargun will give you a great feel of where to go from there after you get used to it. It's a good base to start with.
 
I'd be more strongly inclined to take a run at building one if I had more woodworking tools. As it stands the expense would exceed the cost of a good gun by a fair margin. That said - I've looked at the triggers etc. available and it sure would be a fun project

I also agree it's best to have a sense of what you like before building one - to that argument - though it has been a LONG time - I did hunt with a fairly large variety of guns - various 'arbaletes' - pneumatics, JBLs and the USD sea hunter series of mid-handled guns. Visibility back then was nowhere near what it is now - so the mid-handled and pneumatics were far and away preferable. (The Sea Hunters had the most awful grip - it was really narrow and almost sharp along the front and back edges - really hurt to fire them) I really just started to think about a euro style gun - having realized they have much more power for length than I'd thought.

Problem is my taste exceeds my budget I catch myself looking at Wongs, Omer Master Americas etc. etc. etc.... :mute
 
Fair enough Mark but from what I read of what Fondueset posted he has used a variety of guns over a long period of time. I thought that with this in mind he might have recognised a bit of what he liked from the various guns.

Also he is a freediver more than a spearfisher so perhaps the desire to have a gun NOW! maybe isn't so strong... ?

A 'homemade' gun is only so labelled as you have made it at home - I think that it is not inferior to a shop stock gun and in many respects it could be alot better (there are no commercial time constraints).

Every choice that you make when building a gun is exactly that : your choice. You start to think alot more about dimensions / shaft/band combinations / weighting / length / handle etc.

This is especially valiid if your choice is wood. The wood guns are expensive as the manufacturing involves expensive machinery and you are essentially trying to automate a process that is normally done by hand (ie time consuming = commercailly expensive).

Ali. guns are made with a considerable weighting towards the fact that they can be automated. (Well why not ?! Someone has to make some money out of spearfishing.)

I think that if you wanted to build a gun you could make a very nice one yourself. Buy a decent trigger and a couple of nice shafts for the length that you would like to make and source some decent wood.

Let's say that a nice Totemsub or Abellan or Gimansub gun will cost you in the region of £250 (? $450 ?) - you can buy a trigger from Totem for £35, the shaft (6mm, 115, brown steel - very high quality Devoto - also the Abellan shafts look very nice and are sharkfin tabbed, and double barbed for Dentex etc) for about £12, the rubber for £8 and you can get the wood for about £10 and the West System glue for about £20(more than enough for other jobs - lets say £5 per gun)...

So £70 for a wooden gun (totally wooden - none of this plastic handle nonsense - just joking Mark - I'm sure there is a good commercial reason for the plastic handles on a $700 gun...- or is the 130cm cheaper than that ? Anyway somewhere around that level).

As far as tools go I think that you could make a nice gun with a router and hand tools alone. I know that Ivan from Gimansub in Italy hand shapes all his guns with hand tools. Ok it takes him a month to make a gun but sometimes making something takes a bit of time. It has taken me alot longer to make one ! (But I have a house to rennovate). A nice hand rasp means that you dont work too fast and take too much off - all too easy with electric tools...

Basically I am a perfectionist too but I won't let that stop me making (or trying to make one) a speargun from wood. My reasons were that I already have a gun(ie in no rush) and wanted a shorter one with a lighter shorter/lighter shaft for winter bass fishing(I knew I wanted a wooden gun as my other gun is a 100cm Totemsub Pelagos - I just didn't have the cash for a commercial wooden gun and although I could afford an ali. gun I didn't like the asethetics / firing noise / plastic handle / etc - many long threads on wood over aluminium guns so we wont go there).

You can get the wood cut at the local lumber yard, you can buy a very cheap router and mount it in a table (drill a hole in a table, invert router), it took three separate types of cuts to make the trigger slot, one cut for the rail, a few cuts for trimming off the side edges. A handle was glued in and the rest is shaping and then weighting and finishing. Ok it may not be the best gun in the world but I had fun making it and it will catch fish. I have learnt alot and the next one will be better !

So I think there is alot of myth these days with anything manual. Everyone expects to be able to buy something off the shelf. If you read 'Last of the blue water hunters' they were making basic teak guns way back then without CAD machine cutters and 3D modelling of stocks... Come on it isn't rocket science ! It is a piece of wood with a length of rubber and a trigger, line and shaft. Alot of variables go into the design I agree but I think that it is wrong to mythologise gun making...

Needless to say Fondue will no doubt buy an off the peg ali. gun but no worries, I think that is probably the best option for someone who wants to have one gun and put a few fish on the table while he goes freediving.

Cheers
Ed
 
All really good arguments! One of the great things about this board is very informed and opinionated participants!

Both marc and portinfer are right, in my view.

If I were building one I'd expect to experiment a bit before I got it right. I admit the idea really does apeal to me - easily as much as owning one of the extremely cool beasts available off the shelf.

My biggest constraints there are really time and space - since those basic tools are available to me.

I have an autistic son (and a teenage daughter who dives with me ) and the intense degree of situational awareness/supervision involved in that is something that has to be experienced to be appreciated. It is, for example, quite dangerous to have an unsecured tool around for even a few minutes.

I keep my dive grear assembled and in a backpack in my truck. I have my close and near dive spots selected right down to best times for parking driving etc. Drive times are calculated within minutes - so I can bolt when the window opens - get in the water as quickly as possible and be out and on the road with minimal fuss in order to maximize in water time.

The possibility to concentrate on any one activity for more than 15 minutes is fairly uncommon. Actually being able to dive as often as I do is the result of where I live - perfect preparation and relentless will - being underwater is a miracle every time.
 
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Fair enough Mark but from what I read of what Fondueset posted he has used a variety of guns over a long period of time. I thought that with this in mind he might have recognised a bit of what he liked from the various guns.

Hi Ed, I didn't really understand what you're saying here. Let’s cut to the chase for a second and step out of this obvious “difference of opinion” between the speargun rep. and the do it yourselfer trying to give advice to Fondue. This thread is called “Technosport 6.75mm...” and from talking about shafts, Fondue asked the difference between two Omer guns and that’s how we got onto guns. He asked me to describe differences between two Omer guns. You come out of left field with your recommendations to build your own…There’s a Forum within the Hunting section called “Do It Yourself & Homemade”. I assume he would be in that particular forum asking you questions if that’s what he wanted to know. I’m not jumping into the section trying to tell every person that likes to work with wood and who are spending seeking advice on making guns, ...ehh quit wasting your time and spend more time diving and just buy a stock Omer gun made by a company’s whose job and history is in producing spear guns!

A little off the subject, sort of like a math professor barging in on a physics class calling all the students to his attention telling them just to apply mathematical formulas to all their physics problems before wasting their time studying physics! I think you get the point.

Back to the issue: It seems he's had some limited experience using a few guns in freshwater and I don't think he would consider himself a seasoned veteran of the sport of spearfishing from what I gathered. I recommended a standard 90cm aluminum gun, a perfect intro into modern day band gun performance at an entry level price. It’s obvious time is tight and he has a busy schedule, even more reason to spend less time tinkering and more time in the water! And that was my opinion and that's what he asked for.

Maybe on the other hand, you’ve been spearfishing for 20+ years, and shot hundreds maybe thousands of fish like me and used dozens of stock guns, before you decided you were qualified enough to build your own speargun. And if that’s the case you probably realized after building your twentieth gun or after 5 years of making them, that, your first two guns sucked in comparison to your latest creation and master pieces.


There’s something you need to understand about speargun production and manufacturing. First off, why do Riffe, Wong, Rob Allen, Rabitech, and Omer use plastic handles? And why do smaller artisan gun makers use wood handles?
The answer is logical, the former has invested the time and money necessary to produce a production handle from modern thermo plastics and mold production. It’s like the jumping stone from hunting and gathering ways of life to the beginning of agriculture…a huge change in effort and technology to make things better and easier. The later makes do with what he has, wood and basic tools, so just like you’re doing carves a handle out of wood. A “plastic handle”, even parts of the space shuttle today are made of some “plastic” parts, are thermo plastics, fiberglass reinforce nylon, high impact nylon, polycarbonate, ABS… stuff that is ten times better suited to wear and tear than wood. It is much cheaper for those brands you mentioned to do things this way.

“Basically I am a perfectionist too but I won't let that stop me making (or trying to make one) a speargun from wood.”

I looked at the pictures of your gun and they didn’t border on perfection I hate to say it. I can see ten things that are wrong with it right off the start and I don’t even do any wood-working. Take it from a professional; you have a long ways to go my friend. Constructive criticism.

I never made it a myth that building a very good home made wooden gun was nearly impossible, in fact most experienced spearfisherman, at one point or another have built their own guns. There are some very nice hand made spearguns I’ve seen on this forum, Gilert G for one made a nice looking gun, and that seemed well thought out and every once in a while I see another one that impresses me.

A year or two ago I sent pictures and descriptions of a 130cm Teak gun barrel that was build by a very good wood artisan for me as a blue water gun 8 years ago. It was the first prototype and idea behind what later became the production CNC made teak laminated Master Americas. I shot a lot of big wahoo and my first tunas up to 90lbs with the gun one which I’ll never forget took floats under and 1.5 miles away before they popped up and I thought it was the best thing going since sliced bread. After using it for five years and evaluating it for 5 years guess what? Although my one piece Teak Master blue water gun (there’s probably still pictures of the gun on the forum somewhere) weighed 4 pounds more than today’s production Master Americas, and I was sure my original gun would be more accurate than Omer’s production gun, I was wrong and for some crazy reason with the exact same shaft and same power is less accurate pool tests later confirmed. I was incredulous, the bigger gun shot consistently right or left while the lighter better balanced stock gun was more precise. This goes to show you that its not so easy after all to build a perfect weapon, even by an experienced hobbyist, because if it was speargun manufacturers wouldn’t be in business today (and I wouldn’t have a job) and everyone and their brother would be making their own guns with basic tools. Shoot, there are even production speargun manufactures out there whose guns are not accurate stock and they do it for a living!

“Also he is a freediver more than a spearfisher so perhaps the desire to have a gun NOW! maybe isn't so strong... ?”

I don't understand the difference in your definition between freediving and spearfishing, spearfishing is spearfishing regardless of how you do it.

“Needless to say Fondue will no doubt buy an off the peg ali. gun but no worries”

Ali? Like Mohammad Ali? Come on, what kind of rubbish is that mate :duh

Ed, the important thing is that you have fun during your long UK winters building your guns but don’t assume that it’s the way to go for every cat in the woods. It’s good to have confidence in your equipment and not everyone will have the time to devote to it or be confident in their guns if their wood making skills aren’t up to par.

Mark
 
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Reactions: dave
Marwan said:
FINAL VERDICT
Just tried out my gun with the 6.75 shaft and the picasso 21mm rubbers. MAtch made in heaven, very powerful and dead accurate.

Back on subject, Marwan, so glad to hear that. 20mm bands x 7mm shaft are a great combination and that seems like a perfect combination too with that slightly heavier than stock (6.5mmvx6.75mm) Technosport shaft! I'm sure it's right on the money too.

Later, Mark
 
Didn't mean to hijack the thread I did start another but it didn't bear fruit.
I appreciate all the input - corners and all.

Mark - you are spot-on about my spearing experience. The visibility has changed so much in lake mich since I was last spearing it really requires a different philosophy in terms of Guns - gone are the days when something appeared suddenly six feet in front of you and you had to swing and shoot fast with little or no tracking time. Taking pics has worked up my chops a bit - but there are some types that are just not in the least curious and stay on the fringes if they see you first.

Portinfer read me right in terms of spearfishing being occasional and quite secondary. It will be reserved for relatively rare and specific occasions due to the laws and so forth around here. On the other hand I do sometimes go other places - and it would be nice to have a gun that'll work in big water.

Mark - am I correct that a 90cm gun going to give me about 12 accurate feet?

Right now I'm between the Omers and a Riffe. At this rate I'll probably have all winter to vasilate :ko

The stock on the MA is a work of art - by the way. I like the cobra because the handle doesn't interfere with the flow of it as much. As a shape it may be the nicest I've seen.

Anyway - thanks you guys - I appreciate different points of view - partly because they illuminate whats between them
 
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Apologies Mark for being off topic - consider it closed - I'll PM you for more constructive criticise on my stock - cheers Ed

(Just to clarify 'ali.' refers to aluminium, and in no way reflects any sort of boxing terminology...)
 
Reactions: Murat

Well, at least you'll always know what my point of view is, even my wife tells me I'm as stubborn as they come. Probably good for some things and bad for others.
Either way, I think I better get some work done today and think either way you go you'll be happy with your choice, even with my competitor who makes a fine weapon. 12ft of range is standard with one band.
Lastly, I can sympathize although I'll never fully understand what you go through as the father of an autistic child. I had a girl friend years ago who taught autistic children in a specialized program in San Diego. The stories she used to tell me...you must have nerves of steel and getting in the water must be good therapy. Have a good day, Mark
 
12feet is nearly perfect! How about two bands? I notice the riffe's seem to have shorter ranges relative to their length - wonder what's up with that.

By the way - may name is

Christopher Morey
 
Fonueset,

If you will use single band and need quick shoots get carbon barell gun. 90cm omer will have 85 cm band strech to second notch, i advise you go and get 100, you will not regret later. You will get used to long gun but you can not make 90cm gun to shoot like a 100. I used 75-90-100-110 stock omers and with stock setup i will not take 90 for 12 feet shoots. I don't know may be your fishes are slower there but when i hunt spinefoots here (small fishes) if its 12 feet away from the end of the spear there is no chance you get it with 90cm gun. Of course those fishes are very small genereally smaller than 200gr and faster moving too compare to mid water swimmers. May be you can get 12 feet range with thicker shaft and more powerfull or shorter bands loaded on secon notch but, don't leave it to chance and get 100cm. Even if you don't need it immediatelly wait for the excalibur 3000. Belive me ecalibur trigger far superior to T20 trigger in terms sensitivity and accuracy, i like the line relase mech. excalibur better than T20 since its directly connected to trigger mechanism.

For wood guns, they are expensive but only way to go for souble bands. Mark's master america probably harder to track than OMER's carbon barell models so if your intention is using it with double band its Ok to have wood gun otherwise you will spend double amount of money which will not serve your purpose. I also use 80-110 cm wood guns with single band but i don't care about their price, the shooting performance and the feel when you shoot wood gun is something very different compared to others.
 
Reactions: portinfer
If you will use single band and need quick shoots get carbon barell gun. 90cm omer will have 85 cm band strech to second notch, i advise you go and get 100, you will not regret later.

Murat you're right about everything you say except keep in mind that Chris (thanks) is talking about 4-5 meters of average visibility and in that case what would you use? A 100 would be a bit long in my opinion, especially for fast nervous small fish.

I wouldn't upgrade to a thicker shaft, a 6,5mm is perfect for those conditions, if you aren't pleased with the power if anything you could upgrade to 20mm bands, 20mm bands on a 6,5mm shaft is incredibly fast.

12ft is Maximum effective range, you don't usually take 12ft shots, not too many people do, hell I try not to take 12ft shots blue water hunting if I don't have to.

Mark
ps- forget double bands on a 90cm alum. gun, you'll upset the balance and forgo all the good characteristics of the stock setup for more power and recoil. In your conditions I would think a single band gun is the way to go.
 
4-5 meter visibility sounds too bad. I never see visibility of 4-5 meters. Its very rarelly drops below 20 meters here.

Anyway yes i wouldn't use 100cm gun in 4-5 meters visibility actually i don't dive at all with that visibility rofl
 
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