The discomfort vs the torture zone

[geo909]

Hi all,

I'm doing lots of dry training lately. Part of this is breath patterns on the trademill or the elliptic. I mean, for example, running and doing 3 steps inhale, 5 hold, 5 exhale, 5 hold repeatedly, as well as other patterns.

Now, when it comes to this kind of training, I sometimes get into what I call "discomfort" and "torture" zones (the latter expression, I read it somewhere in this website). I would say that I'm in my "discomfort zone" when I'm almost to the point of having contractions, or I'm having some small, soft ones that I can easily tolerate by relaxing my mind. Then my "torture zone" is when I reach the point where contractions are a bit more violent and I *really* look forward to my next breath.

So far, my strategy in every session is to very gradually increase my heart rate and breath hold time, end up in my discomfort zone, stay there for 20 minutes or so, and then gradually come back to more relaxed patterns. The whole thing would be one hour or so and I try to do that every day or every other day.

I'm sure this training is good and I'll see some improvement sooner or later. But should a serious freediver be in the "torture zone" every now and then in order to improve? I've heard people doing static tables until they dance samba on their beds, or do apnea walks and then wake up on somebody's lawn. I don't like the idea. I will happilly train myself to my discomfort zone, regularly and for prolonged times, but I don't like visiting my torture zone. Does that mean that I'll probably remain a mediocre freediver?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

 

[Mullins]

You don't need to go right to the point of BO (I've never had a samba or BO in training) but it does help to do some near-max breathholds.

It's very, very hard to know what training methods genuinely work in freediving because the variables are harder to exclude than in most other sports. Many (most?) apparent 'gains' really just arise from summoning the motivation or confidence to push harder, rather than actually getting better through training. But I think it's fair to say specificity is important. So if you are aiming for max time/distance in one discipline, you should spend a reasonable amount of time training that way. If you are aiming for comfortable repeat dives, you should spend a lot of time just slightly above your comfort zone. Etc.

 

[geo909]

You don't need to go right to the point of BO (I've never had a samba or BO in training) but it does help to do some near-max breathholds.

It's very, very hard to know what training methods genuinely work in freediving because the variables are harder to exclude than in most other sports. Many (most?) apparent 'gains' really just arise from summoning the motivation or confidence to push harder, rather than actually getting better through training. But I think it's fair to say specificity is important. So if you are aiming for max time/distance in one discipline, you should spend a reasonable amount of time training that way. If you are aiming for comfortable repeat dives, you should spend a lot of time just slightly above your comfort zone. Etc.

Thanks for your feedback, that makes sense..

 

[J Campbell]

Kind of related to this is the concept of "max" breath hold. How do you really know what your max breath hold is unless you actually try it. In other words you "must" hold your breath until you actually pass out to really know your max. Right?
My personal best breath hold is 5 mins - but I didn't really pass out then, felt bad but was fully conscious. I did the 5 minute hold when I was doing some particularly good O2 tables and felt really good on the last cycle (supposed to be 4 mins) so I said to myself "I won't breath until 5 mins". And I did it. But now I wonder what my "real" max must be. It seems you must occasionally hold your breath until you pass out if you want to keep track of your true "max".

 

[geo909]

Kind of related to this is the concept of "max" breath hold. How do you really know what your max breath hold is unless you actually try it. In other words you "must" hold your breath until you actually pass out to really know your max. Right?

You don't have one "max". Your breath hold times may change according to the circumnstances and what people refer to as their best time is not when they reached samba or blackout.

My personal best breath hold is 5 mins - but I didn't really pass out then, felt bad but was fully conscious. I did the 5 minute hold when I was doing some particularly good O2 tables and felt really good on the last cycle (supposed to be 4 mins) so I said to myself "I won't breath until 5 mins". And I did it. But now I wonder what my "real" max must be. It seems you must occasionally hold your breath until you pass out if you want to keep track of your true "max".

Hmmm.. I'll pass on that.

 

[growingupninja]

Hi all,

I'm doing lots of dry training lately. Part of this is breath patterns on the trademill or the elliptic. I mean, for example, running and doing 3 steps inhale, 5 hold, 5 exhale, 5 hold repeatedly, as well as other patterns.

Now, when it comes to this kind of training, I sometimes get into what I call "discomfort" and "torture" zones (the latter expression, I read it somewhere in this website). I would say that I'm in my "discomfort zone" when I'm almost to the point of having contractions, or I'm having some small, soft ones that I can easily tolerate by relaxing my mind. Then my "torture zone" is when I reach the point where contractions are a bit more violent and I *really* look forward to my next breath.

So far, my strategy in every session is to very gradually increase my heart rate and breath hold time, end up in my discomfort zone, stay there for 20 minutes or so, and then gradually come back to more relaxed patterns. The whole thing would be one hour or so and I try to do that every day or every other day.

I'm sure this training is good and I'll see some improvement sooner or later. But should a serious freediver be in the "torture zone" every now and then in order to improve? I've heard people doing static tables until they dance samba on their beds, or do apnea walks and then wake up on somebody's lawn. I don't like the idea. I will happilly train myself to my discomfort zone, regularly and for prolonged times, but I don't like visiting my torture zone. Does that mean that I'll probably remain a mediocre freediver?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

You'll probably mostly notice gains in STA with that kind of training--sounds like you are working CO2 tolerance very heavily, and your threshold will definitely increase if you maintain a high CO2 for an extended period without actually being in the torture zone. I've found a really high CO2 tolerance helps to extend my comfort in STA and spearfishing where I'm much more relaxed and actually running a lower CO2 level than I am when doing heavy dynamic, dry, CO2 work. That kind of work doesn't do so much for me in DYN which I just find kind miserable throughout... I personally can't get a proper freediving lactic/muscle workout from any kind of dry training. Only low O2, or high CO2, or both.

I am of the opinion that contractions can be caused by multiple things--high CO2, low O2/actual dive response, pressure (I have never personally experienced this one but a lot of people seem like they have). CO2 contractions, with training, are the easiest to ignore, and if you haven't been allocating mental focus to them, when REAL contractions start you will have extra mental gas in the tank.

When doing dry dynamic training I don't visit torture zone every session but in heavy training periods do go there a couple times a week, mainly as a way to calibrate and check-in; the torture threshhold changes as I get into better shape, and visiting seems to make the discomfort zone progressively less so. Going to torture zone on a daily basis is mentally exhausting, and because so much of freediving is mental it's likely to lead to burn-out.

 

[geo909]

You'll probably mostly notice gains in STA with that kind of training--sounds like you are working CO2 tolerance very heavily, and your threshold will definitely increase if you maintain a high CO2 for an extended period without actually being in the torture zone. I've found a really high CO2 tolerance helps to extend my comfort in STA and spearfishing where I'm much more relaxed and actually running a lower CO2 level than I am when doing heavy dynamic, dry, CO2 work. That kind of work doesn't do so much for me in DYN which I just find kind miserable throughout... I personally can't get a proper freediving lactic/muscle workout from any kind of dry training. Only low O2, or high CO2, or both.

I am of the opinion that contractions can be caused by multiple things--high CO2, low O2/actual dive response, pressure (I have never personally experienced this one but a lot of people seem like they have). CO2 contractions, with training, are the easiest to ignore, and if you haven't been allocating mental focus to them, when REAL contractions start you will have extra mental gas in the tank.

When doing dry dynamic training I don't visit torture zone every session but in heavy training periods do go there a couple times a week, mainly as a way to calibrate and check-in; the torture threshhold changes as I get into better shape, and visiting seems to make the discomfort zone progressively less so. Going to torture zone on a daily basis is mentally exhausting, and because so much of freediving is mental it's likely to lead to burn-out.

Thanks a lot for the feedback, that's good to know that I'll have benefits. I was a bit afraid that I was doing it in vain. Indeed, visiting the torture zone too often can be exhausting, but it depends on my overall mood and motivation levels.

EDIT: I'm also swimming regularly and since a couple of weeks I started incorporating laps with less breathing (freestyle, breath on the 5 for 100m or 150m, for a total of 500 meters). Usually during the last 25 meters or so I'm in my discomfort zone. Which discipline do you think that would benefit more?

 

[growingupninja]

Thanks a lot for the feedback, that's good to know that I'll have benefits. I was a bit afraid that I was doing it in vain. Indeed, visiting the torture zone too often can be exhausting, but it depends on my overall mood and motivation levels.

EDIT: I'm also swimming regularly and since a couple of weeks I started incorporating laps with less breathing (freestyle, breath on the 5 for 100m or 150m, for a total of 500 meters). Usually during the last 25 meters or so I'm in my discomfort zone. Which discipline do you think that would benefit more?

Dunno really. I think that skip breathing freestyle sets will probably benefit DNF since it is more arm dependent than DYN. I can get a pretty good full body lactic burn + CO2 workout doing the kind of freestyle sets you describe, which feels much like a max/near max DNF attempt. Probably you get some STA benefit since you're running a high CO2 level, and will definitely benefit any type of spearfishing that involves a stamina and cardio component--where you may be fighting a surface current to stay on top of a spot, doing lots of shallow repeat dives, etc. I'm of the opinion it is one of the safest and most beneficial pool workouts for spearos... I've always had a pretty good chest/diaphram/trachea flexibility but I know it has increased in the last few years. I think this also really helps with comfort when diving deep (obvious) but also may make contractions less of a bother when doing things like STA.

I do skip breathing freestyle frequently in my pool training, usually at a pretty medium work intensity but a much higher breathing interval (13+ being my target once I'm warm, sets of 100M to 200M swims). I have some other sets I do in a pool specifically to target CO2 but I feel like I get better CO2 workout with certain kinds of dry training since I have less dive response out of water. I use my pool CO2 sets to calibrate training and know where I'm at since many of them are ones I have done now for a few years.

Mullins knows what he is talking about--I agree that at advanced levels, specificity of training becomes important. I am respectable in pool events but most of my training is to make spearing more enjoyable/safer so I'm more interested in stamina and conditioning for the unexpected when in the ocean. Anything I do in competitive pool freediving is kind of incidental.

 

[geo909]

Thanks again, appreciate the info. I may try spearfishing as well at some point so it's good to know that will help.