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The End Of Aida!!!

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
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Tyler I hope you don’t mind me quoting you, but this issue deserves a new thread, and you summed it up so succinctly.

Why is there so much interest in AIDA? What do they actually do? What is the reality behind this whole "bring the sport into the limelight"?

These questions make me believe we are all following a crowd, with no understanding of where it is going.

Tomorrow, we, the combined voices of non-political freediving, could decide to begin hosting competitions as a new organization or join with FREE. After all that is the only reason people keep showing up at AIDA's doors. They hold competitions all over the world and recognize the results internationally. WOW big deal.

Hey Eric how about you hold a competition in Vancouver, Sebastian Murat in Australia, Herbert in Austria, etc, etc, and there we go, you think that is not going to get a lot of attention from the media if the word is put out? Just as much as an AIDA competition at least (generally none). The real push to get it seen by the media has always been by individuals and the only connection to AIDA is to have the ability to call it internationally recognized.

Then you have most of the competitors who are doing with no care about the media, it is just an extension of being part of an activity. Have some fun, get recognized for accomplishment, go diving again.

Come on people this is no universal entity ruling the future of freediving and the lives of those involved. If you do not like it then encourage others to start community involvement and different organizations.

If we look at education, AIDA is irrelevant. People are teaching all over the place but some instructors are part of AIDA and promote it because that is where one can compete. The students just want to learn and it seems most reasonable often to learn from those actively competing or part of those competition. If there was a local competition being held, then they are going to be excited to participate, to learn, and encourage others to learn from those involved as well.

To summarize am I missing something or is the following what is important here:

- create an international community that is excited to participate in the activity
- organize local and international competitions
- educate
- have fun

We all have the ability to do this, and it is already happening, except those who are helping to do this keep relying on a decrepid entity. Do we need to?

Think about it.

One other point... If there is so much disappointment with AIDA why are we not attempting to assist Free at hosting local competitions? That appears to be the only thing they are missing?

Tyler

- One of AIDA’s mission statements is to spread the sport and provide instruction. It fails on both counts.
However Umberto Pelizzari has a dream of creating ‘Apnea Academy International,’ a school for the instruction and research of Freediving – basically the freediving equivalent of PADI. Corso di Apnea has been translated into the English Manual of Freediving and will be published this summer as the course book for ‘Apnea Academy International.’ From there it is a matter of establishing centres and instructors around the world.
- The other main goal of AIDA is to ratify world record attempts. As we have seen, it falls flat on its face.
However FREE has taken over record verifications and with little complaints. The only remaining preference for AIDA is that they have an established history of records and therefore an AIDA record is considered more prestigious...

It doesn’t take much to start an organisation, and if we do it right now then we can still accept such records as Carlos Coste’s 61 UCB and Stefane Misfud’s 8’24”. Think of it – a group of freedivers agrees to approve these records for an interim period while the new organisation is established. Once created the organisation acknowledges existing records from AIDA, FREE and those agreed on from the interim period.
The organisation would then start organising it’s own competitions (with people like Howard) and record attempts, alongside the Apnea Academy, which handles instruction and research of the sport.
As Tyler says, we can start this today. All it takes is for a group of us to agree on a set of records for the different disciplines. The cases for each record could even be discussed in these forums before being voted on. At first the prestige will not be as great as an AIDA record, but in years to come when AIDA is dead and buried (as it surely will be) and the new organisation is universally recognised, then the athlete will look back and be proud of having had a record with XXX.
These forums are a powerful tool. Let’s create the last freediving organisation that we will ever need. What do you think? What should we call it?
 

cebaztian

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2003
827
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Silly Willy

What do you think people have been doing the last 10 years? Do you want to do it all again?

So if AIDA does mistakes - correct the misstakes - remove the people in power that does the misstakes.

Why reinvent the wheel? Or as we say in Sweden "dont throw away the baby when you throw away the bathwater".

FREE wants to organize competitions - but obviously doesnt have the strength so far.

In a poll on deeperblue.net 55% said they would NOT go to Cyprus if it were not Aida. 160 last year - 110 people this year is attending Cyprus.

Of course Murat and Herbert can organize comps. But what rules shall they use? And why should they organize comps - they are freedivers they want to freedive.

Howard organizes comps because he is a businessman - he sees this longterm and Axel wants people to come to Cyprus.

And what about the IFB - what is that? Friends of Howard approving records. What rules - what proceedures?

Aida has made a lot of misstakes. But why keep focusing on them. The Italians are bitterly sulking because some female athlete was DQ way back (They are probably right a lot of misstakes were done - maybe she shoiuld have been approved) - but thats sport. On the other hand the italians got away with other stuff that should have been DQ - the judge didnt see it. That happens all the time in every sport.

YOU SAY
"All it takes is for a group of us to agree on a set of records for the different disciplines."

My god, read that again. So how do you propose to do that. Shall we choose one delegate from every country and then vote on rules. Isnt that a bit naive - that would take years of arguing and trial by error.

Well thinking of it :) That is what Aida has been doing the last 10 years. Maybe its not so naive.

As you say - its quite simple if you have the time. Why dont you yourself arrange a competition and make up some rules you like. See how many will show up. Or better even - why dont you put you service to the AIDA board. Try to get elected - your entusiasm could be needed.

Sebastian /Sweden
 

noa

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2003
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In France we say "l'union fait la force", wich means unity equals strenght. it is to the advantage of all, to regroup together and expand freediving. if everyone does his little thing on the side we will never progress. it is ofcourse good to have one entity represent us and be our unified voice. of course they will make mistakes and not everyone will be always pleased, but it is in our hands to speak up and let them know if they are on the wrong road. without our support, no organisation can exist. let us now decide who will stand by and move together towards a common goal...
delphicly, Noa
 

Kars

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2003
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I just hope the Mifsud 'signal' get's heard, this is terrible for everyone!

The worst part is that this problem has occured many times, and I admire Mifsud step towards the judge. If this is the only way, let this be the one.


A very dark day indeed.
 

Frederic Buyle

New Member
Dec 22, 2001
31
27
0
Sebastian discribed the situation perfectly.

AIDA has assets that need to be protected and is the most appropriate association of freedivers to continue the adventure thanks to it's network, realizations and media credibility.

But now it's up to the countries, the assembly, the athletes to move on to make the things change.

Stephane Mifsud's case is very sad but this will happen again and again.
 
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tomsietas

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2004
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There is no doubt that Sebastian is right.
We'd rather be happy that we have a strong community that developed a complex set of rules and is very succesful in organizing competitions. I'm glad that AIDA made it that far!!
Now that AIDA made a mistake we can work on it. We can change rules or replace persons (which is not necessary in my opinion, we only have to upgrate international judges). But it's naiv to think you can found a new foundation which is getting that strong and makes no mistakes!! And even if you could it would take many years.... so why? We shouldn't split we should work together to make it better.

:naughty

P.S.: International judges must have the right to recognize WR's.
There are more competent judges than two. And the additional effort to send tapes etc. takes too much time and is absolutely unnecessary.
 

fpernett

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2001
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The problem is not the mistake itself. The problem is that they don't accept that mistake. The only case was Annabel, after a long fight, they accept the mistake. What about Coste and Mifsud?. I don't understand the great disagreement between the "in-place" judges and "video" judges.
If the in place judges think that there is something wrong they should inform the athlete that they have doubts because of....
don't wait 5 months to tell him "you record is not valid".
I never heard Nagel or Baumann saying "We made a mistake".
It's wise to accept the errors.
Mifsud knows that he has the WR, We all Know that. I wonder why Mr. Nagel don't ask the "in-place" judge if he made the ok sign. "Yes, He did it." That's all
 

tomsietas

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2004
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I'm sorry but the question is not whether he did it or not.
It must be seen on the video because they also want to see how it looked like.
The LMC doesn't concern only the face!!! But still the best way in my opinion is
that Sebastian or Dieter would only have to ask was the dive O.K.?!!!!
 

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
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Sebastian, Fredrick, noa, tomsietas, I think you are all missing the point. Nobody is codemning people for mistakes!!!!!! People are getting fed up with the general approach of the organization. That approach seems to include an all-powerful "top-guy bureaucrat", and a set of unwavering rules that go against community desire. The community in the end is what makes this a sport or not. Maybe we who have been discussing this are missing an understanding of how change will actually come about in AIDA? But so far myself and many others do not see a direct means of affecting change in AIDA. So please volunteer how we can ensure change occurs? But please don't pass out the same thing as usual about, "contact your local rep", as we have all seen the effectiveness of that, and it is a flawed system in general.

So sure it is radical to suggest reinventing the wheel. But consider this:

1. If at least the concept is out there that it is possible and could happen, then maybe there will be quick remedying of the current organizations to ensure this is not required.

2. It is not reinventing the wheel since the community already understands and is involved with much more than other organizations had to start with.

3. Unification is not important at the organization level if you are interested more in your community, as opposed to money and media.

4. Arranging competitions in local areas will still attract participants no matter what your name/affliliation is. Heck individual communities organize them just for fun.

5. You think it would take too much to do... well maybe this community should seriously consider it just to prove you wrong and show what a real community is all about.
 

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
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Will,

I STRONGLY agree that this is a good idea, if not just for the fact that it could give this sport a TRUE community feel, involvement, and CHOICE.

However, the valid point, would be to retain resources that have been created so far, if they do not deter the intended outcome.

This is where I suggest as a community we look into what possibility is there for involvement with FREE and its growth. What philosophy and approach do they employ for the future?

But if there is a similar rigidness to community say and involvment, I think it would be usefull and fun to create a whole new organization, as you say, right from this forum and others. It can happen and will happen if there is no other sane organizations.

Cheers,
Tyler

PS Well done on starting this thread!
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Mifsud came up so easy it looked like a joke! I assume most people in this thread saw the video online?

Here it is (the static video occurs midway through):

rtsp://rmedia.francetv.fr:554/sports/stade2/stade2_20040201.rm

In such a case, when you see the athlete come up like a joke, you must ask about the purpose of the okay sign. I think the AIDA rules were better before, some years ago.

In the old days, judging was also subjective, like today. But, in the old days, the okay sign was just an action you could do, to HELP the judges understand that you are okay. But, it was not necessary.

Judging is either subjective or objective. In objective judging, an athlete could push a button, the red light turns green, etc... that is objective. All other methods of judging (i.e. looking at the athlete and judging), are subjective. The attempts to make judging more objective by requiring an okay sign, taking off the mask, etc., are actually a bit misplaced -- there should be a clause which states the following:

"Taking off the mask, giving the okay sign, and keeping the airway above the water are helpful for the judges. However, in the case where the athlete is obviously okay, the judge may use his discretion and accept the performance."

Anything else becomes a bit ridiculous. I once came up from a 5'05" static in a competition, and got out of the pool within 3-4 seconds. Sure, I gave the okay etc., but all the spectators realized there was no doubt. If I didn't give the okay, and was DQ, the spectators would not understand at all. Sure, he didn't give the okay sign within 20 seconds, because by the 20 second mark he was already in the changing room putting his clothes on. So he should be DQ.

Judging should be either objective, or subjective. I don't agree with adding various 'objective' tasks, when, in the end, even if the athlete completes the tasks he can still be DQ'd; so why have the tasks, if the athlete can do the tasks and still be DQ? Better to have the tasks as 'optional' to help the judges. Or, use an objective method of judging.

Judging should be either objective, or subjective. Currently, it is subjective. It was extremely obvious that Mifsud was okay. So, even if the okay sign isn't on the video (or wasn't even given), the record should be accepted, just like it would have been accepted under the AIDA rules a few years ago.

To summarize, there are two types of rules concerning 'tasks' for the diver:

Rule Type #1: If the diver performs the task(s) successfully, the dive is accepted (similar to FREE rules, and various other rules suggested by deeperblue members)

Rule Type #2: The athlete must perform certain task(s) upon surfacing. If he does not do the tasks, the dive is not accepted. BUT, even IF HE DOES THE TASKS, the dive is STILL NOT NECESSARILY ACCEPTED. [AIDA rules]

Once again; if doing the tasks does not result in the dive being accepted, then why make the athlete do the tasks?

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
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I would like to add a comment about FREE. The reason that there have been no big international competions with FREE has to do with the safety standards.

Under the FREE rules, no diver shall perform a training dive, without the same level of safety/security as during the competition (i.e. full set of scuba divers etc...)

The AIDA rules currently use very weak safety standards during the training days. The only rule is that a lanyard is needed during training. There is no requirement for scuba divers. This makes AIDA competitions MUCH cheaper to run than FREE competitions.

Rudi told me that it would cost $250,000 USD to run an international FREE competition. In 2001, they had a big sponsor that was going to pay for it, but the earthquake in Turkey changed everything. It was unfortunate, because about 80-90 divers had signed up for the competition.

In subsequent years, they again had problems finding enough money, even though Rudi & Yasemin were prepared to put in $50,000 USD from their own pockets.

So, the reason these competitions are not happening is not because of lack of interest. It is because they are more expensive to run than AIDA competitions.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

RogueWave

DB Coprolalomaniac
Nov 20, 2003
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The situation may be more dire than AIDA's defenders make out and this may, indeed, be the end of AIDA. No matter what any of the AIDA insiders believe, the organization's sole purpose with respect to freediving records is merely to create a level playing field for elite athletes to match skills. Without a supply of athletes who can advance the limits, AIDA records will become second rate, irrelevant statistics. They live or die by having the world's majority of elite apneists as affiliates who accept the ultimate fairness of the organization's decisions. AIDA can disavow the records of other organizations all they want, but once AIDA no longer has the majority of real records, it all amounts to laughable hubris (viz. AIDA's denial of FREEs unassisted CB records etc., as if they were set on a different planet or something).

There are probably only about fourteen athletes in the world that currently have any real prospects for advancing existing records. By my count, AIDA has shafted four of them, three of them are FREE affiliates, one is named Pippin another is named Seb Murat. That leaves maybe five prospective record setters that are AIDA insiders. So, well over half of the world's prospective record setters are no longer AIDA affiliates. Several of the insiders, such as Tanya Streeter and the PFD crew, have financial interests in their records and will almost certaily abandon AIDA once the tide shifts. Ater all, who wants affiliation with a second rate organization screwing with your livelihood? Unless the insiders can collectively hold a strong majority of the world records, AIDA will die.

Defend AIDA all you like with arguments about the minutia of detecting ultra-subtle LMC's about how AIDA records are the real records and all that. If the athlete looks ok to the average joe after the dive, the public will accept the record as valid and all of the indignant protests by AIDA judges about their super-human perspicacity in LMC detection, the lack of validity of other organizations' records etc. will be answered with collective yawns -- assuming anyone even gives AIDA a forum to bitch.

Will and Tyler are 100% right -- starting a new organization is not all that hard. Pippin did it, Rudi did it. Contests are run all the time w/o AIDA. They suck at the publicity thing. In fact, AIDA's position in the frediving worldis highly contestable, but they don't seem to realize it. Too bad for AIDA.
 
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st3fan

cu @ the bottom
Nov 2, 2002
85
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Defend AIDA all you like with arguments about the minutia of detecting ultra-subtle LMC's about how AIDA records are the real records and all that. If the athlete looks ok to the average joe after the dive, the public will accept the record as valid and all of the indignant protests by AIDA judges about their super-human perspicacity in LMC detection, the lack of validity of other organizations' records etc. will be answered with collective yawns -- assuming anyone even gives AIDA a forum to bitch.

well said ;)
 

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
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Re: Silly Willy

Originally posted by cebaztian
Or as we say in Sweden "dont throw away the baby when you throw away the bathwater".

Djeee, do you've got more of these sayings??? :duh :D
 

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
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Sometimes a house is worth renovating. Sometimes the house is so dilapidated and rotten that it is far easier just to bulldoze and start again from the foundations. AIDA may be such a house.

Could we do rebuild it right here? Would we be unanimous?
Kars' poll is an appropriate way of measuring this (unless it is sabotaged):
Do you agree with the 'final' judgement, about Mifsud's static 8'24" performance?
Bear in mind that we can be just as informed as those who decided against him. We can watch the same video and hear the same accounts from the same people.
If more people agree with AIDA, or even if there is an even split 50:50 of supporters and diffidents then so be it, AIDA is our lot. But if there is more or less unanimous approval of Misfud's record it shows that AIDA is no longer a reflection of the freediving community (at least in this instance). Be careful in calling it a mistake - AIDA has made the decision not to accept Misfud's record on a technicality. It is this decision, and a history of such like it, that reveals the disparity between AIDA and the community it serves.
I believe this should be AIDA's last chance. If they correct their decision (and it would have to be prompt), or if there is good support for AIDA, then we must continue with them.
If not then I ask: who will help to lay the foundation for the last freediving organization we will ever need...
 

cebaztian

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2003
827
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Yeah ROUGE WAVE thats the way to go - let the PUBLIC judge the performances. But if you dont mind me asking. Is that an NORMAL AVARAGE JOE, or a slightly TIRED AVARAGE JOE, or maybe a SLIGHTLY SHAKING AVARAGE JOE, or is it an AVARAGE JOE with a slightly spastic finger.

And I can assure you after seeing some doussins of LMC you actually get better and better at defining them - just as judges in Ice scating get better in defining their arguments for reawarding points.

Well I am yawning right now.

It is so easy for you to be in opposition, to say NO, to not agree. Start building an organisation - it is not that simple. Ask Rudi and the IAFD guys (hey the last one didnt even manage).

But you are right if the top athletes abandon AIDA - Aida will be in trouble (or just go on judging the avarage joe freediver).

Sebastian /Sweden


Defend AIDA all you like with arguments about the minutia of detecting ultra-subtle LMC's about how AIDA records are the real records and all that. If the athlete looks ok to the average joe after the dive, the public will accept the record as valid and all of the indignant protests by AIDA judges about their super-human perspicacity in LMC detection, the lack of validity of other organizations' records etc. will be answered with collective yawns -- assuming anyone even gives AIDA a forum to bitch.

Will and Tyler are 100% right -- starting a new organization is not all that hard. Pippin did it, Rudi did it. Contests are run all the time w/o AIDA. They suck at the publicity thing. In fact, AIDA's position in the frediving worldis highly contestable, but they don't seem to realize it. Too bad for AIDA.
 

st3fan

cu @ the bottom
Nov 2, 2002
85
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...just as judges in Ice scating get better in defining their arguments for reawarding points.

hahaha...that was a good one :D :D

The higher the bribe the "better" their judgement. If no money offered then political, ethnical and social attitudes seem to have major influence.

What a fair and desireable system...... *pfft*
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
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Originally posted by cebaztian
or is it an AVARAGE JOE with a slightly spastic finger.
Well, here we come back to an old problem with defenitions.
By the "slightly spastic finger" rule, I had a few LMC's today just by sitting infornt of the computer (excluding the volantary finger movments I had when I first heard about the Dsiq.) and I'm sure it is possible and common to get some "motoric agitations" or "psycho motoric agitations" with no connection to apnea, it sometimes happen to me when I stay static for a while (like sitting infront of the computer, or doing statics), or more common when I get cold (which usally happen when freediving). And I claim myslef to be an average normal healthy person, and not a person with a tourette syndrom.

On the other hand, I'm not fond of the idea of a diver finishes a dive with half his face folded inside his right eye-lid and not counted a LMC.

This all gets us back to a need of an objective judging system.

Just for a theory, how would you judge a tourette syndrom diver by AIDA rules?
 
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CEngelbrecht

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2002
618
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Re: Re: Silly Willy

Originally posted by Jorg
Djeee, do you've got more of these sayings??? :duh :D

Got a Danish one: "You avoid mistakes through experience, but you can only gain experience...by making mistakes."

Give AIDA a chance, give her time. She's all we got. Don't think that these posts aren't being read.
 
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