The MPA controversy

[rogerkamp8817]

Francesca Koe,

A little background search pointed me to this board. Apparently you are an editor for deeperblue, according to the your bio on huffington post website.

Do you mind explaining to everyone this article that you wrote? Since the comment box was conveniently locked for your article, I figure posting it here would be the next best thing.

Francesca Koe: California's Newest State Parks Are in the Ocean

I noticed that you posted pictures of "today's trophy fish" using a picture of fish that aren't even from Southern California! :rcard

Please go spend your time wisely battling crooked politicians or corrupt oil companies. Please leave the simple things such as fishing for us to enjoy!

 

[trux]

Re: Francesca Koe

Roger welcome to DB. I can't speak for Francesca, and do not know what exactly you want her to explain about her article, but before posting offensive comments about someone, you should better check the facts. I see no reason why Francesca should write about politicians, and not about freediving and spearfishing or about the ocean that is her specialty. As far as I know she has nothing to do with politics, but she is one of the best US freedivers, and very likely can hold her breath underwater much longer than you.

BTW, what photo of a fish exactly you refer to? If you speak about the photo of a Lionfish, then you are mistaken - this invasive species is now well present in California too.

 

[cksea]

Re: Francesca Koe

I call bull shit on Lion Fish in California.

 

[spaghetti]

Re: Francesca Koe

Note from moderators: please, cool down.

We don't shush poeple on this board and personal attacks are not tolerated.

Feel free to discuss, politely.

 

[rogerkamp8817]

Re: Francesca Koe

Roger welcome to DB. I can't speak for Francesca, and do not know what exactly you want her to explain about her article, but before posting offensive comments about someone, you should better check the facts. I see no reason why Francesca should write about politicians, and not about freediving and spearfishing or about the ocean that is her specialty. As far as I know she has nothing to do with politics, but she is one of the best US freedivers, and very likely can hold her breath underwater much longer than you.

BTW, what photo of a fish exactly you refer to? If you speak about the photo of a Lionfish, then you are mistaken - this invasive species is now well present in California too.

Did you bother to even read the article?

You missed the photo that I was talking about. Look at it again and you will see one where the caption states "today's trophy fish are tiny compared with those from a generation ago". The tiny trophy fish picture in her article uses fish that aren't even from here.

Second, I've seen bigger lobsters pulled out this season than the ones in the images she shows. I've also seen bigger fish as well.

Third, her article states that the MPA doesn't effect local fishermen because it leaves 90% of the remaining areas open... she forgot to mention that these remaining areas are a lot less accessible and much more dangerous to dive. in addition, the ones that aren't too bad to hike into may potentially be over fished because people will be funneled to these spots.

Fourth, lion fish?!

Fifth, she shows a picture of a black sea bass. The caption says "50 years ago the ocean seemed limitless". Black sea bass illegal to hunt already. Besides being misleading, what is the point of using this picture in support of the MPA?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Re: Francesca Koe

These Marine Protected areas are tearing apart the California section of Spearboard, so I guess its not surprising that the subject found its way to DB. The subject is so complicated and has occupied us for so many years that its impossible to give it a fair treatment in one post, but here is my version of an executive summary.

I attended meetings all over Southern California of the Science Advisory Team (SAT) and the Blue Ribbon Task Force (BRTF) charged with implementing the Marine Life Protection Act. Like most recreation and commercial fishermen and spearfishermen, I came away convinced that the process was rigged against us. First of all, the state had no money to finance this process, so it was paid for by environmental groups interested in closing the ocean to all but sightseers. When these groups paid for the salaries, travel expenses, etc. of the scientists and task force members, it requires a suspension of belief to maintain that they didn't influence the outcome. The ultimate outcome was bought and paid for in advance, with only the little details to be worked out.

Again, there is no way to tell the entire story here, but I recall going to one of the first meetings of the Science Advisory Team. When a specific subject would come up for a vote, the scientist with the expertise in that field would say "we just don't know enough or have the data to support that recommendation." And then the chairman would force consensus and say "we have to go with best available science" and the recommendation would be forwarded to the BRTF.

The members of the BRTF had no expertise in marine conservation, but instead were former Mayors and other sorts of politicians used to running meetings. They delivered the result that they were paid for.

I had been making annual contributions to the NRDC for about 15 years prior to seeing their support for this sham process, but I emailed them my resignation.

Regarding some of the points in that video:

It showed a giant black sea bass taken many years ago. After overfishing drastically reduced numbers, the fishery was closed in the early 1980s, and now they are so numerous at some kelp beds as to almost constitutes pests. I've been fortunate, but some of my friends have lost 70 pound white sea bass when 300 to 400 pound black sea bass tore them from their spears. It didn't require closing entire areas to protect black sea bass. It just required classic fisheries management methods.

White sea bass offer another example. When I started freediving for them about 14 years ago, they were hard to find and a 50 pound fish was a very notable catch. After inshore gill netting was banned, they made a big come back. There are many more fish, and several guys diving from my boat have taken their first fish at over 50 pounds. It didn't require closing areas of the coast line.

As noted in a previous response, they may have left 90% do the coastline open, but they took the 10% that was worth diving. Much of the rest is mud flats. Particularly tragic is the closure of the entire coast of the city of Laguna Beach. It has a lot of good habitat and many good entry points for beach divers. Its where many people learn to spearfish. Now those without boats have few alternatives, and will be crowded into what few areas are still open. Someone is going to get speared or run over by a boat.

If Laguna had to be closed, then it would be easier to stomach. But knowing that it was to be closed, many guys who would have been silent have been describing and photographing their catches, and I've never seen so many limits of lobsters, and so many really big ones, as well as very nice fish. It doesn't appear to have needed protection.

One other recollection of how the process was fixed. After saying at one BRTF meeting that the white sea bass population was very healthy, a scientist said at the next meeting that it was in real trouble. I can only conclude that his masters reversed his "scientific opinion" between meetings.

I must comment on parts of Francesca's video that I found most offensive. It shows examples of beautiful anemones, nudibranchs, etc. from the Southern California coast. Those beautiful creatures certainly exist, but I've never speared a one of them, and neither of my friends. What will endanger them is pollution, and the MLPA does nothing to address that. Inclusion of those images is an obvious appeal to emotion, but has nothing at all to do with closing fisheries.

Right now there is an attempt on Spearboard to organize a massive civil disobedience event at Laguna's Main Beach, with as many divers as possible spearing fish in the closed area, and then attempting to educate the population and hopefully members of the press. My wife has given me permission to be arrested.

There are no lionfish in California.

 

[spaghetti]

Bill, this is a picture of what exactly (and sadly) happened in my country, too.

We call them AMP over here (Area Marina Protetta) but in the end it's the same feeling that recreational spearfishers, and recreational spearfishers ONLY, have been deprived.
On our AMP's, maybe, it's even a bigger screw up than in the californian MLPA's: over here, spearfishing is made practically impossible, while everyone else can do what they want in the sea, be it netfishers, charter boats, scuba classes et cetera.
Then, I don't know there in SoCal, but over here in my country the conservation of marine resources is actually the last of concerns for the AMP supporters: politics and money, that's what is all about. Oh, don't get me started.....


This said, given my mod super-powers, I've changed the name of the discussion cause I don't like persons to be called out by name, and Francesca, who BTW is not a spearfisher AFAIK, is well entitled and well qualified to express her own opinions on the matter, without being called out and asked to justify. May disagree with certain views, but I'm 100% sure she's in good faith.
Discussion is open, but respect is the key.

There are no lionfish in italian AMP ;-)

 

[RayBanFoxMan]

As Bill stated, Laguna is a hallmark spot for spearfisher-people to learn the sport from protected and easily accessible areas, full of good fish. I learned to fish there many years ago. Laguna being lost has taken a considerable toll on my spearfishing as I don't have a boat to access the other "good" spots, and living inland, Laguna is the closest area, with the best beaches and good fishing to ME.

I know these closures affect some people more than others for many reasons (geography, boat access, etc) but people like myself, who enjoy getting people new to the sport acclimated, are hit particularly hard.

When the date is set, I will be handcuffed right along side Bill and the many others who stand against these ridiculous closures and laws.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill, this is a picture of what exactly (and sadly) happened in my country, too.

We call them AMP over here (Area Marina Protetta) but in the end it's the same feeling that recreational spearfishers, and recreational spearfishers ONLY, have been deprived.
On our AMP's, maybe, it's even a bigger screw up than in the californian MLPA's: over here, spearfishing is made practically impossible, while everyone else can do what they want in the sea, be it netfishers, charter boats, scuba classes et cetera.

I'm not sure whether it should make me feel better, but here recreational and commercial fishermen share the pain with spearfishermen. We all got screwed.

I guess that gives us some reason for hope. A majority of recreational rod and reel fishermen had no idea that this process went on, and have not heard of the results. When they show up at their favorite spots and get a ticket from a game warden, they may have an incentive to get informed.

 

[Mattedhead]

To be quite honest...that article makes me naseous. The misinformation runs rampant.

 

[Mattedhead]

Re: Francesca Koe

Roger welcome to DB. I can't speak for Francesca, and do not know what exactly you want her to explain about her article, but before posting offensive comments about someone, you should better check the facts. I see no reason why Francesca should write about politicians, and not about freediving and spearfishing or about the ocean that is her specialty. As far as I know she has nothing to do with politics, but she is one of the best US freedivers, and very likely can hold her breath underwater much longer than you.

BTW, what photo of a fish exactly you refer to? If you speak about the photo of a Lionfish, then you are mistaken - this invasive species is now well present in California too.

I would follow your own advice and do some fact checking of your own. Aside from that, I'm not so sure her static PB really relates to this thread.

 

[honu714]

Re: Francesca Koe

Roger welcome to DB. I can't speak for Francesca, and do not know what exactly you want her to explain about her article, but before posting offensive comments about someone, you should better check the facts. I see no reason why Francesca should write about politicians, and not about freediving and spearfishing or about the ocean that is her specialty. As far as I know she has nothing to do with politics, but she is one of the best US freedivers, and very likely can hold her breath underwater much longer than you.

BTW, what photo of a fish exactly you refer to? If you speak about the photo of a Lionfish, then you are mistaken - this invasive species is now well present in California too.

Her breath hold is irrelevant to this conversation and I actually LIVE in Southern California and there are no Lionfish here. Any other brilliant arguments?

To put it bluntly, we got f*cked with this whole process and this article in question disgusts me. The slide show is full of pictures that aren't even related to the problem.

 

[Ethan kills]

Re: Francesca Koe

Roger welcome to DB. I can't speak for Francesca, and do not know what exactly you want her to explain about her article, but before posting offensive comments about someone, you should better check the facts. I see no reason why Francesca should write about politicians, and not about freediving and spearfishing or about the ocean that is her specialty. As far as I know she has nothing to do with politics, but she is one of the best US freedivers, and very likely can hold her breath underwater much longer than you.

BTW, what photo of a fish exactly you refer to? If you speak about the photo of a Lionfish, then you are mistaken - this invasive species is now well present in California too.

You have got to be kidding right? Where do live? Prauge? There are no lionfish in California.

 

[Oldsarge]

Now! Everyone take a deep breath and count to ten. Yes, we all, divers, anglers and commercials got shafted by the DFG. However, it will do no good to start fighting amongst ourselves and calling names. If it keeps up, I will lock this thread and any others where name-calling and impolite language starts showing up. Keep it civil or Papa Smurf will be very, very angry and we don't want to get Papa angry do we?

 

[Bill]

Thanks for the update Bill. Good luck to all in the fight. I got involved with the Sea Otter fiasco but that was the feds. Maybe at the state level you'll have a chance.

 

[mermaidgirl]

Re: Francesca Koe

Roger welcome to DB. I can't speak for Francesca, and do not know what exactly you want her to explain about her article, but before posting offensive comments about someone, you should better check the facts. I see no reason why Francesca should write about politicians, and not about freediving and spearfishing or about the ocean that is her specialty. As far as I know she has nothing to do with politics, but she is one of the best US freedivers, and very likely can hold her breath underwater much longer than you.

BTW, what photo of a fish exactly you refer to? If you speak about the photo of a Lionfish, then you are mistaken - this invasive species is now well present in California too.

Ivo,
We do have lionfish in the US- they like the warm water in Florida but so far it is too cold for them here in California. I hope they stay away !
Francesca is a good friend of mine but I do think she could have chosen more representational photos of the species that are affected by the MLPA closures. This is a very difficult subject as we all want to protect the ocean but closing it down to low-impact sustainable spearfishing is an unfortunate casualty of the commercial over-fishing and poaching from outsiders that goes on here. California is a beautiful place and way too many people want to live here and the environment is suffering the consequences. I dove in the Mediterranean a few months ago and I would hate to see our ocean become fished out as it is ,as result of unregulated commercial fishing. Strict laws can prevent that from happening but still allow low-take spearfishing .
Carla
BTW- guys just to remind you; this is not SpearBoard- please try to be nice and not make us look like a bunch of cretins!

 

[rogerkamp8817]

A quick search shows that the Mediterranean Sea is adjacent to 20+ countries:

Spain, France, Monaco, Italy, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.

Not to say that over fishing from commercial fishermen isn't harmful, we are comparing apples to oranges when you talk about the Mediterranean Sea with the coast line of California.

This article is so irresponsibly, it is ridiculous.

 

[JMaloney]

p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Times; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } I thank Bill for writing an accurate and eloquent portrayal of how all of us Californian's are getting screwed by organizations like the NRDC, Francesca Koa and Karen Garrison. I won't call names and I'll be polite. A small group of individuals and environmental organizations with deep pockets and great skills of persuasion have PERMANENTLY closed over 35 new areas of the Southern California area available to divers. Their narrow minded agenda has PERMANENTLY DENIED the right of my children and grandchildren and ALL citizens to enjoy fishing, spearfishing and other methods of harvest from areas THEY consider threatened.
I remind you that WE taxpayers all pay DFG to MANAGE our states fish and wildlife resources. What the enviro movement has done is PERMANENTLY DENY us and the DFG the right to carry out responsible management of our ocean. What’s next? No running on trails or walking on beaches because we might harm something? No hunting for deer, or other game that are abundant and are effectively managed by tax paid DFG.
It appears the enviro agenda is to put all of California nature under glass to see when and if the enviro organizations see fit. I thought this countries mandate 200 years ago was to let THE CITIZENS vote to decide how best to manage the affairs of the states and it's resources. I never got a vote on this issue. I and all other California citizens got railroaded and ignored. To me, all environmental groups do not represent my point of view any longer.
I personally find it disgusting that a small group of people can deny me and my family and future heirs the right to enjoy nature and it's bounty. Francesca, Karen and the rest of us would not be here today had our forefathers not hunted and fed their families. My father is rolling in his grave. The degradation of California continues with good intentions and smiles by the ill informed and ignorant few. Karen, Francesca and the others, PLEASE try to respect MY rights and see the world from all points of view. Your views are NOT the majority.

 

[mermaidgirl]

A quick search shows that the Mediterranean Sea is adjacent to 20+ countries:

Spain, France, Monaco, Italy, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.

Not to say that over fishing from commercial fishermen isn't harmful, we are comparing apples to oranges when you talk about the Mediterranean Sea with the coast line of California.

This article is so irresponsibly, it is ridiculous.

No, it is not different at all.
I was in Greece - population 11,319,048
California population 36,961,664
additionally we sell fish from california to the rest of inland US( pop. 307,056,550) and all over the world( pop, 8 billion)-- do you see the problem ???

 

[Don Paul]

Halfway marine protection measure launched in California
Here is a little background for our non Cali members.


My son and I can no longer fish or spearfish in front of his house in Laguna Beach. Even though this process started back in 1999, I feel like I have not woken up from a very bad dream. I gave 10 years of my life helping to pass Prop 132 anti gill netting legislation., and another 3 helping to raise White Sea Bass. We have more fish on the coast over the last ten years than I have seen in 30. Watermen and fishermen have been screwed.

Back on point...the comparison of Giant Black Sea Bass from the old days to a image of warm water fish not found in California waters was off base and poorly researched....much like the MPLA process.

Sincerely, Don Paul