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Unassisted constant weight

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clogz

New Member
Aug 30, 2001
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Here have been a little bit discussion of unassisted dynamic apnea, but I haven't seen any articles of cw.

At least David Lee has experience of this, and since now he's with us, I'd like to ask what kind of 'major things' there are to remember or/and train most? That must anyway be different than cw with fins/fin, and dynamic with or without fins.

Thanks in advance,

Juha
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Hi juhaimmonen
As far as my training is concerned I really don't have much control over that because Rudi Castineyra prescribes everything...BUT from what I have noticed that helps with my unassisted dynamic is that having flexible lats (you know, those big chunky muscles under your arms?) helps becuse there is less resistance when going for an arm pull...I break into two strokes

1. Arm stroke and 2. Leg stroke (froggy action) They are both done independently...Lets say I push off from the side of the pool (also found that an agressive push off makes things more difficult than pushing off gently...Beside that, it shoots cold pool water into the neck of my suit) ...I push off with my arms overhead (kinda like when you jump off a diving board) and glide until almost a complete stop...I keep my eyes on the bottom of the pool (at all times) and my arms right by my ears and one hand on top of the other...if you are looking up at the other end of the pool you will definately create drag and short yourself a couple of tiles distance on a glide...As soon as I am close to stopping I do a nice easy pull with both arms (of course both arms)...easy because if you go too fast your arms don't bite into the water and you will loose some distance from going to fast...as soon as your arms are by your side you glide again till almost a complete stop...my head is always down counting tiles on the bottom so I don't bust my head into the other end of the pool...So now you are in this bullet shape kinda like they do when they skydive in the James Bond movies! :D Now it's time to activate my legs...but before I do that I place my hands above my head again in that "diving off the diving board" position and then do a nice strong frog kick...glide like a toothpick, and start all over again...Also I found that taking the time and making the turns at each end of the pool easy and graceful (although it takes up a bit of time) it helps out to make X distance easier...But this may be different for everyone...

Hope that helps

Later,

Me
:martial

By the way, the e-mail notification thing is not working for me...maybe I should update my e-mail address huh :duh
 
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EdHand

AK water is C O L D!
Apr 23, 2002
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Unassisted dynamic strokes...

The stroke you describe is very close to what mine has developed into. I don't think I wait as long between the frog kick and the next arm pull. More like I reach with the arms while pulling the legs in, wich sounds like what you do. Then just as the leg kick is finishing I do the arm stroke. Then glide till nearly stopped. Wind up and repeat. I think my hands tend not be on top of each other but tightly side by side and flat when out in front. But then I'm not competitive and don't have the bennefit of a coach. I'll have to try those couple changes and see what happens. I'm also gonna visualize that skydiving image... :) That is pretty much the same position, maybe if I think it, I'll glide further.

BTW, what is a competitive distance for no-fin dynamics? I see all the numbers for the finned distances, but I don't know what's typical for unassisted. My only lap pool access is a 25M pool and I never have a like minded buddy along. So I limit myself to doing a single lap, turn around get a stroke or two in then come up and continue swimming on the surface. I'm quite comfortable with that 30M+/- distance. And can usually do it without much of a breathup.

Thanks for the description Dave, its nice to see that for one part of this at least I'm not teaching myself really bad habits by learning things on my own.
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Hi Ed,
You might want to give the tooth pick glide a try...you know, right after you kick instead of pulling with the arm right after, see how far your legs will take you on a glide...then incorporate the arms just before you come to a stop...buoyancy is a key factor too...My dynamic technique is my own...My trainer only scrutinizes my technique and tells me how much I suck when I am doing the unassisted dives in the ocean.

As for a competitive distance I believe Herbert Nitch of Austria has the dynamic no fins to 130 or 131m or somthing like that...I have never tried for a personal best in dynamic unassisted but I do 75m repetitions in training without problem...maybe one of these days I will give it an offical try and see how far I can go... :crutch
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
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hey david

75m repititions thats amazing, my dynamic without fins pb is only 72m and i think herbet nitsch no fins record is 134m not to sure though, i read some of your tips like looking down and counting tiles, i might try as i usually look at the wall regularly, as for the stroke all i do is breaststroke. any tips that'll get me to 100m no fins by the way im very unfit and dont do any training for this.

cheers
 

Ossi

New Member
Sep 6, 2001
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Count your strokes!

One way (that swimmers use quite a lot) to improve your technique is to count strokes. The less you need per lap the more efficient your stroke is and the better streamlining you have achieved. 4 stroke-kick pairs / 25 m is OK, but less is possible.

If you are uncertain about the ways to improve your performance, try observing breast stroke swimmers. After the start and every turn they are allowed one stroke and one kick underwater, which they try to exploit to the max, since drag underwater is smaller than on the surface.

It might be optimal for a diver doing a dynamic to deviate a little from the swimmers' technique, but I quess it is a good starting point.
ossi
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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..but but, I was talking about constant weight..

Just flip yourself upside down and the same concept applies...The line at the bottom of the pool is now the rope, becuse of buoyancy you will tend to float the first 10 or so meters then after that you will notice the glide starts to cover more distance...after a while you can just sink without moving (freefall...Don't do what you see in my videos because I tend to haul ass down and back...gonna change that though)...Yasemin's Unassisted record video is a good example of this...The Gurlie has perfect form..Truly a fish if you ask me.

On the ascent I was doing a scizzor kick...think i may change that for the next dive...I did a few regular frog kics and a couple of scizzor kicks on the same dive and I seem to cover more ground with the froggy style....

On the ascent (at the turn around point) I found that it is necessary to incorporate the leg and arm stroke at the same time because of the negative buoyancy at 35+m...It will feel like you must kick 2-3 times rapidly to overcome the gravitational force before you start moving...If you wait too long between strokes you will sink 1m for every .75m you ascend...for me anyway)...Also if I can ever remember I am going to make the strokes just like the pool when I do start to pick up momentum...I will be in Jamaica next friday and will have lots of time to play with this category and will be happy to report my findings...

Adios fellow frogmen! :wave
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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hey david

75m repititions thats amazing, my dynamic without fins pb is only 72m and i think herbet nitsch no fins record is 134m not to sure though, i read some of your tips like looking down and counting tiles, i might try as i usually look at the wall regularly, as for the stroke all i do is breaststroke. any tips that'll get me to 100m no fins by the way im very unfit and dont do any training for this.

cheers


__________________
andrew

Getting to 100 for you shouldn't be within your ability if you are just breast stroke scrambling on th ebottom with your head in an upright position...think how much extra energy across 72m it takes to keep your head up and staring at the other end of the pool...Just do realaxed glides head down (make sure you know how many tiles/strokes before you get to the other end so hitting your heat at the other end is not your only que to turn around)

Also, do me a favour! if you are going to try and extend your dynamic (personal best) bring someone to the pool with you to keep an eye...I find that the life guards don't know DICK about apnea training and you may as well have been training alone...The lifeguards get so used to me training that they don't even notice me if I am doing 5-6min statics (this worries me)...I could be laying dead at the bottom of the pool and they just think.."Oh, he's just training!" So if you know you are attempting something difficult, bring someone with you and fill them in on what to watch for incase of a BO...probably would be a good idea if they knew CPR too :D

Later all
me
:martial
 

EdHand

AK water is C O L D!
Apr 23, 2002
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Wow, big numbers...

I can only imagine getting to 134M at the moment, but then that's about as close as I'll be getting to any of Mr. Nitsch's marks anyway. Same for that 4 stroke-kick pairs per 25M. Either my technique is far worse than I thought or those breast strokers got way more power than I would have imagined. Maybe a bit of both :) I'll concede everything on the freestyle, I know I stink there, but I always thought I did pretty well on the breast stroke. Of course maybe just getting to the pool on a halfway regular basis would help too... :eek:
 

Ossi

New Member
Sep 6, 2001
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To clarify my post:

When I wrote that 4 stroke-kick pairs / 25m is ok, I ment diving, not swimming breaststroke. The differense? When diving, you are suposed to make long strokes, i.e. start from streamlined gliding position and end with your hands beside your tighs (then return your hands, close to body and just before you get them back into streamlined position, kick).

To achieve 4 strokes per 25 meters you need to push guite hard from the pool end and glide after every kick and stroke.

Breastroke is the most technically demandig swimming technigue and as such needs lots of practise (even 'fly is easier if you only are fit and flexible enough to swim it).

ossi
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
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hi

hey david how far can you go with fins, also what depth can you get to with fins if you can get 45m without I bet you can go a lot further than that.

cheers
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Hi Andrew,
You know, since november of 2000 I have done nothing but train for the unassisted records...before I started training freediving was just for recreation and I had only made it to 32m with fins...
Never did any type of training in the pool.

since I started training with Rudi I have only been to the ocean 3 times (2 weeks each time) in two years for diving for depth and these have only been pre record training dives without fins...So in all truth I don't know how deep I can go with fins :confused: Since november of 2000 I have logged 26 dives for depth including my 45m & 47m records.

I have done unassisted constant to 49m before...I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma and there is no ocean around...I also have never tried for a personal best in dynamic with fins, or without. Everytime I make it to the pool it is for trainnig for the unassisted record...I have done 100m dynamic with fins, and 100m without fins and could have gone much further but that's what the training called for...

I have made it a point that after the next dive I am going to work on my static personal best and also unassisted personal best dynamic with and without fins...So to be honest, I have yet to explore my full potential...I plan to change that towards the end of the year though..

Hope all is well,

Safe dives
me
:martial
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
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hi david

You said you could have easily done more than 100m without fins, what do you reckon i reckon you could have a shot at the dynamic without fins world record. also you said about improving static what is your static pb both wet and dry my dry is 5:06 I reckon you could go over 7min with your dynamic ability. also do you think jogging is good for static and dynamic i think I might start to train for this sport by doing a bit of jogging so I can get static over 6min.

cheers
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Originally posted by ivan
hi david

You said you could have easily done more than 100m without fins, what do you reckon i reckon you could have a shot at the dynamic without fins world record. also you said about improving static what is your static pb both wet and dry my dry is 5:06 I reckon you could go over 7min with your dynamic ability. also do you think jogging is good for static and dynamic i think I might start to train for this sport by doing a bit of jogging so I can get static over 6min.

cheers

Andrew, when I can usually hit 100m with fins wihout warmup but without fins it is usually towards the end of my training session where it becomes easy...I don't think I could hit 100m unassisted without warming up first...probably after 3 hours of apnea training and then doing sets of unassisted dynamic. As for my static...dry 6:15, wet 6:28...that was last year summer...However I feel right now I can go much further...when I did the 6:28 my first breathing reflex was at 4:05....two weeks ago I was doing sets of apnea just to the first breathing reflex...on the 10th set the first breathing reflex came at 5:15...If I push it I am usually good for another 2-2:15 of gut wrenching contractions...I think I am going to TRY and go beyond 7:15-7:30 after the summer and see what happens

I believe jogging is a good work out to get the body in a good aerobic state...However static is an anaerobic sport/activity (actually you aren't doing anything..how can it be a sport or an activity? :D )...so towards the end or closer to an evet a few weeks it's probably a good idea to change to more anaerobic workout...
 

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
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Aloha David
It's good to hear from one of the best. As an old timer, struggling to get to 100 meters, I don't want to know about '100 without a warmup' but, any help will be appreciated. Some magic regimen to get another 10 meters would be great.
Another question,
>However static is an anaerobic sport/activity
why do you consider staying awake while using the minimum amount of O2, anaerobic? I thought that the 'efficient use of O2' factor made it the ultimate aerobic challenge.
Bill
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Originally posted by Bill
However static is an anaerobic sport/activity
why do you consider staying awake while using the minimum amount of O2, anaerobic? I thought that the 'efficient use of O2' factor made it the ultimate aerobic challenge.
Bill

static is Definately an efficient use of 02...it's just when I hear the word sport or activity I think of surfing, windsurfing, running..somthing truly active...but then people say that static apnea is a sport...I mean, you are laying there like a dead person for minutes at a time...sometimes while in static I just have to smile and think..."oh my god, this probably look so stupid!" but I like it...it's pretty kool when you tell someone how long you can hold your breath and they look at you like "aren't you supposed to be dead?"

As for extending your dynamic 100m (or was it trying to get to 100ft down) I would have to know a bit about what you are doing now to be able to give you any hints or time...drop me an e-mail and give me the lowdown...

later all

Something else...if you want to confuse the hell out of me start talking about co2, o2, partial pressures and all that....when people ask me physiology questions...my response is usually this "Ask Rudi!" :D

It's like, what's the big deal? hold you breath and swim down as far as you can...hahah...if it were that easy!
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
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hi

geeze 6:28 wet thats awsome, I think eric fattahs static wet is 6:26 your up their with the best.

ps I heard Herbet Nitsch is going for a 9min wet static later on. what a freak.

cheers
 

Tom Lightfoot

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2001
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Congratulations!

I gather from reading the news on the front page of this site that big congratulations are due to David Lee. -51m! That's awsome!

Tom Lightfoot
 
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