Very very basic questions

[Harps]

Hello all. I have been viewing this forum for a couple of months now and have done searches to try and answer my various questions but some of them remain unanswered.

I am from Sydney, Australia and have always loved snorkelling and diving. I have recently developed an interest in getting a bit more serious about freediving.

I don't really want to become competitive or even go that deep but would just like to be able to go to 10-15 metres and stay down for a minute or so and look at the fish! Currently I can get to 12ish metres but can't stay down for more than 5 or 10 seconds. So here are my questions:

1) For my needs as described above do I need to do O2 and CO2 tables?

2) For my needs is it worth doing a freedive course? There is one available locally but not sure if I need it?

3) I am a smoker - how much does that impact breath hold ability?

4) Breathing up/ventilation - I have searched lots of threads and have not found any really basic description of what this is. I understand everyone is different but what's a garden variety breathe-up? I get the feeling hyperventilation is frowned upon nowadays?

If anyone can help me it would be much appreciated. And apologies in advance for my ignorance.

 

[RydDragyn]

The smoking issue was discussed at length in another thread. While I don't think there was a clear scientific consensus on the impact of smoking on breath hold ability (since every person smokes different amounts and has varying apnea ability), the bottom line is that if you quit smoking ASAP, you'll live longer, and hence be able to freedive for many more years to come

 

[rslomkow]

1) No Some world record breaking divers on this forum don't do dry breath hold exercises at all. world record holder Eric Fattah is quoted saying , "I don't do any apnea training unless I am training for static."

most people find doing tables makes them more comfortable holding their breath.

2) I suspect most freedivers have never taken a course. It also depends on how you learn, some people learn much better from a course. Most people new to the sport will improve depth & time pretty fast at their first course. This is not SCUBA most recreational divers don't get hurt doing counter intuitive things.

I think in SCUBA the main importance of a class is:
a) learning the names and the assembly of the equipment
b) knowing that just because it turned out fine once it doesn't mean that doing it again will be OK (I think this is very counter-intuitive to many people), meaning you accumulate residual gas in your tissue, and just because you felt great after 1 dive repeating it doesn't mean you will be safe.

You don't have the problems in freediving, so you don't need a course, but it might be fun and make you better and safer.

3) RydDragyn responded well on this one.

4) The basic breath up. 2-3 Really deep belly breaths.

a) breath in to you diaphragm (or belly) slowly and constantly
b) once your diaphragm is full start inflating the chest
c) exhale slowly starting with the diaphragm (aka belly)
d) then exhale out of the chest

repeat, and go under on a fully breath. Though a number of people like going down after emptying all the air out of their lungs.

Basic concept is just to fill your blood with as much air as possible and oxygenate as much of the lung as possible before the dive.

Freeiving is easy an fun as long as you are comfortable in the water
If you have much of any athletic experience you should have some idea of how to judge your physical limits.

 

[alix.leclerc]

I've just started freediving and I've started doing CO2 and O2 tables. Personally found that they really helped so far, just with getting used to breathing deeply and getting used to holding my breathe and the sensations of having high CO2 in the blood has been good. It has also been good because I can set myself targets, like reducing ventilation time slightly or increasing holds. I like using targets in this way, I find it gives me something to aim for.

Another question though, is freediving a case of, the more you do it, the better you become and practice makes perfect (as long as you don't push youself too hard and know your limits ect) So that basically, even with limited training, if you dive once or twice a week you would get 'good'? Basicaly is it that much quicker and easier with training?

Thanks

 

[trux]

Just a warning: the breath-up advised by rslomkow sounds pretty much like hyperventilation, what is probably the ever most dangerous thing to do when freediving. Avoid that! By deeper breathing you do not get any more oxygen into the blood. The blood is already quite close to the saturation level when you breath normally (slow and shallow), so the only effect deep breathing and purge breaths have, is blowing away CO2 from the lungs. That 's definitely something you want to avoid. The body uses CO2 chemoreceptors to see how much oxygen it still has, so when you blow it off it thinks there is much more oxygen than is the reality. You indeed feel like having still a lot of air and can do much longer apnea, but you are getting into the danger zone without even noticing it and can black out without any prior warning! A definitive no-no for every diver!

I also do not agree that there is no need for a course. If you do not take any, you risk doing such stupid things as the above mentioned hyperventilation, which can easily kill you (and it indeed kills hundreds of people each year). So if you have the chance, do not hesitate to take a course or enter a club. If not, then be at least sure to buy a book and read the forum here - start with the thread http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/64959-how-start-freediving.html

 

[perow1]

I guess the main thing to practice water confidence and relaxation. No huge apnea training tables andi breathing techniques are needed. Though, one classic way to get hooked by the "I-want-to-get-deeper-feeling" is the wish to be relaxed at a certain depth. Diving to 30 to be able to snorkel to 10 and so on. It is a poison

 

[trux]

I guess the main thing to practice if staying a minute at twelwe lookig at fish is relaxation and general water confidence. No huge apnea is needed. Though, one classic way to get hooked by the "I-want-to-get-deeper-feeling" is the wich to be relaxed at a certain depth. Diving to 30 to be able to snorkel to 10 and so on. It is a poison

I am sorry for the mentoring here, but I can't resist. I see too may dangerous advices here. The abilities of each individual are very different, so telling a newbie that he should do a minute long apnea in 12m depth is something you should definitely avoid to listen to. Although there are many people who are able doing it without any specific training, it can easily kill others. And trying to push any limits when diving alone is something you must avoid in any case. You should avoid diving alone completely, but I am aware that it is not always respected. But if you decide to dive alone, you should never ever try setting any time or depth records, you should never hyperventilate, never push the apnea through contractions, simply never even remotely touch the danger zone, never go over your comfort, and rather stay somewhere around 50% (or less) of your potential limits. Much better - get involved in a club and dive together with others with more experience.

I'd also advice going to the old threads here on DB and reading through. Especially the above mentioned thread is a good start. The problem of asking here in the beginner section is that it does not easily get the attention of experienced freedivers, but rather of other newbies. They try to help with their advices, but often actually cause more harm with it than help.

 

[perow1]

Well, that was my point. Do not focus on any breathing techniques or CO2-tables. Get relaxed in the water as if it was your natural environment. swim and dive a lot, do not focus on the time. And, of course, not alone....

the second part was that if you say; I want to be able to be comfortable at 12. You are already taking the first step into the depth hunting game.

Still I am happy to have you here as the moral proof reader of the posts, Thank you!

 

[perow1]

oh1 now i see what was wrong with the first post. relaxation i water wasn´t in it. i meant to put it there and i will change it.

 

[spaghetti]

A freediving course is almost necessary, or at least reading and discussing a lot with expert freedivers to get some basics clues. BUT for Harps's purpose ("watching fish at -12", he says) I don't think he must necessarily adopt the typical freediving routines, because freediving disciplines (CW, Dynamics and statics) are totally different actions.
For his purpose (watching fish at shallow-intemediate depth), for me he'd better use the common routines of spearfishers. Which is widely agreed to be: 4 slow breathing acts (all in, all out, with exhale time longer than inhale) and try to merge with environment in tranquillity, listening to the signals of you body and mind to take your time for surfacing back.
Please Trux, feel free to tell me if said something stupid.

 

[trux]

Yes, Spaghetti, the comparison of recreational explorative freediving / snorkeling to basic spearfishing sounds fair and wise.

As for the breath-up, I'd be more careful at beginners. Making four deep breaths may already have serious hyperventilation effects. It very much depends on the way you do it. At sensitive individuals, and/or with some additional conditions (warmth, low blood pressure, food/drink before diving,...) already a single deep purge breath can cause rapid blackout at the beginning of the breath hold. So a newbie not knowing well his own body reactions, should definitely avoid messing up with breathing. Beginners, instead of concentrating on controlling their breath (which only adds stress and muscle tension at them), should concentrate (as perow1 wrote) on the relaxation and enjoying their dives without trying to push. They should rather breathe absolutely normally as in each day life.

Only once you are really comfortable under water, you can try working on some controlled breath-up, and even then it should be done only very carefully and in slow steps. As Spaghetti wrote, the exhale should be much longer than the inhale time (often you can hear about patterns like: 4 counts inhale, 3 counts hold, 15 counts exhale, 3 counts hold) - the slow exhale stimulates bradycardia (slowing the heart rate). Better though than trying to measure the inhales, or control the breath artificially, is simply trying to relax - the body will do it automatically for you.

There are also freedivers advocating high CO2 dives, artificially under ventilating, and trying to invoke stress feeling - both the high CO2 and stress are beneficial for rapid and deep Diving Reflex (bradycardia, blood shift, blood shunt, vasoconstriction, splenic contractions,...), but again I would not advice it to beginners - messing up your natural breathing pattern, and the CO2 level your body is used to, is not something a beginner should risk. He first needs to learn understanding his own body. It is something different if you are used to dive since being small kid and have spent more time under water than on the surface - even if you use some "incorrect" breathing patterns, it is something you and your body are used to, and can well cope with it. It is the sudden change that poses serious risks. So at beginners, or people who suddenly decide to change their technique, or improve their performance, the risk of an accident is much higher.

Again - all this, including hyperventilation, breath-up, CO2 levels, FRC diving (high CO2 diving on empty lungs) was discussed more than once, and the best starting point for every beginner is definitely in the thread http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/64959-how-start-freediving.html or better yet in a freediving club or a course.

 

[rslomkow]

Trux the beginning freediving link reccomends belly breathing as well

I guess the difference between hyperventelating and "reccomended" breathing is speed, and you are right that slowness should be stressed.

It is the same deep breathing you do in any hatha yoga class, with the same emphasis on slower exhale than inhale.

I do think most people find it counter intuitive to breath normally and just stick their heads underwater. Many people take a big breath before starting to climb stairs (though this probably doesn't help that much).

I don't have any numbers, but I know that my default (pretty shallow) breathing means that if I hold my breath with no breath up or no excersise I feel the acid in my legs pretty fast when walking (under 10 seconds going up the stairs) and I cand put that off to over 30 seconds with just a couple of deep slow breaths. That seems like shortage of oxygen from normal breathing. But maybe it is just an effect of relaxation. I have not done a blood oxygen test.

It does imply to me that a good breath-up is helpful, but I have no idea if that is normal for most people who have swam out to a nice spot in the water.

I did forget about the beginner freediving link. It is very good and I will link to it if I respond to other beginner posts.

 

[naiad]

Maybe we should have a single article or locked thread introducing beginners to freediving. Then there would at least be one central place where things are written down. It could have recommendations for courses and books.

The reason I think it should be a locked thread is because inevitably some people would contribute with wrong advice, or it would become padded out with discussions about who is running a dive course in the UK in November, or similar things which are of limited usefulness. It is good to discuss these things on DB, but it can make it more difficult for beginners to find the information they need.

I think the beginner freediving thread is very good, but I still think there should be a single place for all the information, which must be approved before being posted.

Anyone who wants to add information to it could make suggestions via PM to the author of the article.

Lucia

 

[Harps]

Thanks everyone for their in-depth responses. The input is very useful. I have read the beginner freediver thread but thought that a lot of it may not be relevant to me due to my realtively low-key freediving goals so thought I'd ask some questions more tailored to my needs.

I'm thinking I may as well do the course. It can't hurt can it.

And re the smoking...well I'm sure you're right Ryddragan but I was hoping for a "yeh we all smoke and have no problem getting to 50 metres" sort of response.

I'll get back to trawling through old threads now.

cheers.

 

[alix.leclerc]

Yes, thank you a lot, it's been really helpful.

I've been trying the breathe in for n, holf for n, breathe out for n etc and that's really realxing.

Basically, keep fit. Relax, and practice gently and with someone! Right?

Some people have been talking about 12m but that seems so deep already for me. I've only even been that deep once and that was doing scuba on a wreak so I'm more feeling like starting at 5m and just... just seeing what it is like!

I remember just playing around in France on the rocks two meters down, and the difference between being relaxed and calm or being anxious and excited and it taught me a lot.

Thanks guys, it's really quite motivating talking to others of more experience!

 

[trux]

This thread may be of some interest: http://forums.deeperblue.net/beach-bar/69294-breath-holding-smoke.html

 

[Harps]

Thanks trux. Much appreciated

 

[alix.leclerc]

Why not quit smoking? Since I found out how much caffeen can raise your heatrate I haven't touched a cup. Plus, the older you get the harder it'll be to quit.
and you've got a really motivating reason to stop!

 

[naiad]

Caffeine has a huge effect on my apnea performance, so I avoid it before any training, whether dry or in the pool. I don't think it has any long-term effects, so if I have a coffee in the morning, any training in the evening should not be affected.

Lucia

 

[Harps]

Well Alix I probably should just quit but I actually love it - and I am to the point now that I only smoke when I drink alcohol so I would smoke less that a pack a week on average.

Regarding breathe-ups I found this thread to be interesting.

http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/59281-breathe-up-hyperventalation.html

So does the breathe-up that cdavis explains in this thread constitute hyper-ventilating?