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Weighting for CNF

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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JennyWren

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2009
272
45
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Just tried my first 'real' CNF today. I've done 15m before which seemed easy enough, and I tried 20m today and although I made it down, I ran out of oomph on the way back up and had to use the line. I just felt really REALLY heavy and it was taking me ages to get back up. Bear in mind that this was my last dive of the workout in which I'd done a PB in CWT so I was a bit tired, but I still expected to do better.

What do you guys aim for bouyancy-wise on CNF? I'm wondering if I was overweighted. I didn't seem to have too much trouble getting down, and I was definitely quite negatively bouyant at 20m - felt like I was sinking more than I could compensate for on the way back up, even though I know that's not that deep.

My weighting felt fine for CWT (I usually aim for being neutral at 10m). Do people usually use the same for CNF, or is it personal preference? Suggestions?
 
in tend to dive very positive for CNF neutral at about 13m ish. but compared to CWT the turn at the bottom and the amount of effort required to come back up is alot more. if you look at some of Will T film clips you will notice he is quite positve and probably not neutral till about 20m. but then again he is diving very deep. i think you need to weight yourself based on what your target depth is. but if you found the descent a little tooeasy then maybe drop a pound or 2 and see what happens.

DD
 
It depends of what suit are You using. For CNF the best possible suit is Orca RS1 or similar. The idea is to use as less buoyant suit as You can.
For example William Trubridge advised me to use no weights at all with my Orca RS1, unless I`m still positively buoyant below 15m.
Hope that help's a bit :)

p.s. If You are in colder conditions, where a full suit is necessary, try to use 1,5-2kg for 3mm suit.
 
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I used about 6lbs with my 3 mil - diving to just over 26m. Will T has very little body fat - I believe he is negative at the surface without weights. Correction - I'm neutral right around 8-10 with this setup - I've never used packing. Definitely could stand to tweak it a bit. It felt wonderful though my technique was just barely out of the nest.

CNF sure is fun :) Hope i get the chance to do more of it.
 
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Nice surprise ;)

I remember my first CNF also very well; tried for 25m after an easy 15m dive.
At 25 I got the tag and started swimming, but the rope stayed in one place... Oh shit went through my mind! - Ok, I really need to focus here and swim with good technique and efficiency, and indeed I got gradually some speed and up without any problems and a cool experience richer :)

I agree with the other answers given above.
1) Wear the thinnest suit you can bear - keep in mind that you only want a warm torso and head; the legs and arms may get cold.
2) Wear lead to be neutral at around 13 -15m. Don't pack, just a normal breath of air will be enough for the 20m dive. The gained peace by not packing is very helpful as well as the reduced buoyancy.
3) Use a nose clip, this will allow you to go down much faster.
4) Practice UW DNF speed swimming in your pool, optimising your stroke and posture. Aim for 45 seconds for 50m (speed). You will need to reduce your gliding to a minimum.

Personally I did a nice pb in Germany a few months ago to 46m in a cold lake just wearing a 2XU V1 triathlon suit with and a sleeves-cut-off 3mm jacket with hood underneath; NO weights, No packing. Dive time was 2'06" (I should be a bit faster without the equalising problems).

Oh and make sure your warm in the core when you dive with a thin suit.
I don't do any preparation dives.

Let us know how you go!

Kars
 
I'm neutral at around 14m with a 1.5mm Orca Alpha suit and close to max packing. Even with the suit, if I exhale on the surface I sink pretty quick. Fresh water would be worse.
I find the style of swimming used for max DNF attempts does not cross over well to CNF: I train stroke-specific strength in the gym/pool, and then reduce that to about 70% max power during a CNF dive.
 
Thanks for the helpful hints, Will.
I've been using some of the arm balance asanas to work up my triceps and upper body.
 
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These are some great tips, thanks guys. Unfortunately getting another suit isn't an option at the moment. Mine is a 5mm (I live in Vancouver, and it's chilly!) which was the best year-round option for me. Eventually I'll be getting something else...

My recent (failed) dive was in fresh water. This weekend we are diving in the ocean so I think I'll see how I feel with the same amount of weights. I'm actually training for an upcoming CWT so that's my focus for now. The CNF is in August so I have more time to figure it out.

I like no fins the most, I certainly find it more pleasant in the pool. I just need practice with depth. Kars you mentioned using a nose clip. I don't have fluid goggles - could I use my nose clip over my mask? It would certainly make my technique on the way down easier but I'm not sure if I'd be able to equalize my mask (sphera)...hmm. I should train my nose to flare my nostrils, heh. Maybe I could adjust the clip to be just tight enough to equalise my ears AND mask. I have fairly easy ears to equalize.

I'll let you guys know how this weekend in the ocean goes.
 
Well JennyWren I share you challenge with the noseclip and mask. I like my sphera because it keeps my head warm and gives nice vision. I know of people who put a clip over the mask with succes. Today I got the idea to fill my Sphera nose piece so it's tighter giving me just enough exhale pressure to equalise against, I'll test it tomorrow in our shallow -18m lake.
It's becoming popular to dive with ONLY a noseclip, wearing no mask of goggles.
Another option might be wear a synchronised swimmers noseclip underneath your sphera, but I need to test that.

I too have not to difficult ears, and with practice I can equalise hands free at times. Those dives are usually to most memorable and best experiences :)

Oh and today I tried flaring my nostrils, I guess we're in tune ;)

Ok, let's make a filler providing just enough pressure to equalise against, whilst enable me to equalise my mask when I need to. If it works, I'll be a very, very happy freediver!

And on the suit, it's a trade off between a more difficult start, first 12 meters, but much easier ascend. For me it's easier, I need to overcome buoyancy from -50 to - 15m, 35 meters of faster and lighter swimming. I rather be a to buoyant than to heavy.

The 5 millimetre suit makes CNF much tougher.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars
 
I use noseclip and no mask for cnf. On the way down I close my eyes, but keep them open when searching for tag and then watching the line moving as I swim up. My vision without mask is good enough for that. I also find the water flowing over my face a nice feeling. When I tried it in freshwater the water stings my eyes a bit. When I tried it during winter the pain on the forehead and eyes made it hard to relax. So then I tried the noseclip over the Sphera, but could not get it tight enough to really equalize against (but I know others do). But if you do get a tight fit I think you will do ok. You need the noseclip the most the first couple of meters, then you have more time between your strokes to equalize so you can then remove it and also equalize your mask. When removing the noseclip, be sure to stabilize the mask with the other hand, as it easily leaks in some water.

Good luck!
 
I tried the nose piece filler today, and though it was a little improvement is was not enough.
So back to the drawing board, I just had another idea, to make two shallow nose plugs, cone shaped to block the air without pushing the nose piece from the face, I fact that's what happened with the neoprene nose piece filler in the previous test.

I also tried the traditional nose clip and for me it works very well! Now I only need to try it in deep cold water, to see weather the cold blocks my sinuses.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars
 
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I'm not going as deep as you guys/girl but I find using a noseclip in our cold below the thermocline(s) dutch water very pleasant too. I find that filling my regular goggles with water from the lake is a little bit warmer and therefor my favorite at the moment. Last year I made a pipe mask out of a Aqualung Seal (The sphere without the nosepiece) which is a bit bigger than my goggles. Next time I will try that to find out if it's warmer.
 
I do hands free at all times (even when shopping or typing threads on deeperblue). I did run into some trouble at about 33 meters - but just because I'm not used to mouthfill yet and kept inhaling what was in my mouth. But - I wanted to mention doc's pro-plugs. I use them to protect my ears in cold water - but they seem to make equalizing easier somehow. Everyone I know who uses them says it makes equalizing less problematic. It doesn't really make sense to me - but it does seem to be true.
 
I used the dr. Pro plugs for about a year but came to the conclusion that for me they make no difference with equalisation. They only helped when my suit was very tight to maybe prefend a hood squeeze. Now that I have pierced the hood with a hot needle I don't find the plugs comfortable nor neccessary anymore.

Eric
 
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Same for me - help with hood squeeze - also in cold water they help avoid shock to the ears.
 
Jenny,

One option is that you can equalize the Sphera once (say at 10m) and then let it collapse from there to 30m, which is your depth limit, I think, for the competition. There will be plenty of air left in it at that depth, it will feel a little tight on your face and may take some getting used to.

You could even try the nose clip option on top of the Sphera with that in mind, and have it tightly pinched and not be concerned with the problem of putting air into the mask if you can't equalize hands free.

When I've done CNF with a mask, I've equalized hands free until about 15m, equalized the mask, then let it collapse. Never tried with a nose clip, though.

Pete
 
Just an update after my dives yesterday. I tried with the same weight in salt and it was easier for sure - although I didn't try a no fins. However, I was able to add 5m to my best CWT and coming up from the bottom felt less sinky than last time I did a target CWT, so yay.

The nose clip idea seemed to work for the first few metres (15 or so) but after that it was slipping a bit so I didn't get a good enough seal to equalize my ears. I'm thinking this is due to me flaring my nostrils a bit to equalize my mask. The rubber on the Sphera is really slippery so the nose clip will probably always shift a little bit. Back to the drawing board!

Anyone have suggestions for learning hands-free? I can do it for airplanes, head colds, etc, just by flexing some internal muscles behind my jaw and under my ears, but it's not enough (yet!) to equalize underwater.

**edit** Found some threads and documents on BTV (hands-free) so I'll have a look through those and ask if I need more help.
 
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I'm neutral at around 14m with a 1.5mm Orca Alpha suit and close to max packing. Even with the suit, if I exhale on the surface I sink pretty quick. Fresh water would be worse.
I find the style of swimming used for max DNF attempts does not cross over well to CNF: I train stroke-specific strength in the gym/pool, and then reduce that to about 70% max power during a CNF dive.

Hi Will. Thank you indeed for sharing your exp.
* Why only close to max packing?
* How many srokes do you do to start descending? Last time I did 58 m on Rab Dive Off 09 and last trok I did was et 28 meters. Is it too late? Should I add more weight? Ascend was not so hard. I had bad flue and 58 m was maximum I could equlize.
 
28m might be alright for the last stroke, but it is more important to look at the descent speed several seconds after the last stroke - this shouldn't be less than 0.7m/s, and should gradually approach or exceed 1.0m/s.
I use 6 strokes to get to about 23m.

So far I haven't needed to max pack for CNF, and also it brings a slight risk of swallowing air when I turn over to start the dive.
 
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Thanks a lot. I'll check my computer. I think I was descending app. 0,8 m/s. It tooks me a while till I reach 1 m/s. Because of colder watter I train in 5mm Ellios. Have you posted any of your diving profiles anywhere? It would be very informative and with your performance we are not competitors for you :).
 
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