Weighty issue

[growingupninja]

Glad you made some discoveries! I know the legitimate arguement for wearing a wetsuit in a pool is that it keeps you warmer and freediving when cold can compromise your safety, but personally I think they make it harder to learn to swim. Feeling the water is a big part of swimming--it gives you immediate haptic feedback which you don't get the same way in a wetsuit.

 

[Ms Mer]

Getting there with the streamlining and buoyancy related problems. had dynamics on Thursday and did not pop up to the surface - yay!. Stayed horizontal at a stable depth the whole training session. Used 1kg neck weight and usual 3kg on belt. Put weights more on side of hips than front. Sore as shoulders after training. I figure I must have been doing much better with streamlining to remain pretty much neutrally buoyant and the soreness in shoulders and trapezius and lats is from really trying to stretch out to minimise drag. Also sore on tops of feet. we were doing hard drills though with time sitting on the bottom as long as possible then sprints to end so may have been kicking too vigorously Will be able to get some footage next week.

 

[Ms Mer]

Kars and Ninja (and anyone else who wants to give me some feedback!) I have some video from the surface and under the water and will have it up in the next 2 days. Am I correct in thinking that it's best to put on youtube then put the link on here?

 

[baiyoke]

Here's my perspective on the boyancy challenge... I'm not an exspert in freediving, so just take it as more input. However I think it's good to keep in mind when dealing with this:

On thing you have to realise when working on that boyancy is, that what you are trying to do is theoretically impossible. You want to find the weighting that makes you a stable system keeping your depth at a desired level. But you are in fact a very unstable system. Apart from all the other aspects covered in this thread, this is what's going on: Even with the propper technique, weighting etc. you still need to adjust constantly to not float or sink (allthough I belive it can be automated with training, and for some people just is automated). The air in your body and suit changes in volume when going deeper. And the changes in volume are biggest just under the surface, getting slightly smaller at ½m, slightly smaller at 1m, and so on. So pool-freediving is done were it is most difficult to maintain a stable depth. With the right weighting, there will be a depth, where you are almost, practically stable, but you will move a bit up and down from this depth, and when you move a bit up, you get too boyant, when moving down you get too heavy. I think that is what has happened in your process.

I think you need to be conscious on the small movements that adjust depth continously. Besides working on all the other stuff

I would recommend some play in the water, focusing on sensations and movements when going up and down. Play with exagerated movements. Playing around with different stuff has helped me a lot, and it's fun also. Play with a purpose, if you know what I mean.

As some mentioned earlier, perhaps diving without the suit will give your brain the feedback needed to automate this process...

I bit theoretical, but just something to that might help in the process...

 

[growingupninja]

Kars and Ninja (and anyone else who wants to give me some feedback!) I have some video from the surface and under the water and will have it up in the next 2 days. Am I correct in thinking that it's best to put on youtube then put the link on here?

Sounds like a good way to do it. I will try to get somebody with a goPro to tape me sometime in a pool so I can share and get feedback as well. I will put a few drills on it maybe.

 

[Kars]

Indeed upload it to youtube or vimeo or some other video server. I'm looking forward to it!

Has consistency been mentioned to get your buoyancy under control? learning to take the same volume of air every time really helps a lot finding your balance.

 

[Ms Mer]

Buoyancy has not been an issue really since I started working on streamlining and doing some extra pool training with a kickboard. But I know (just from looking at the video on the camera straight after it was taken the other night) that there are still things I have to improve. My kick needs work. Having muscle weakness on the right side - ankle, IT band - is meaning that I kick differently with my right leg. My left is stronger.

No one had mentioned about consistency in terms of breath up, so that is something useful for me to know also.

 

[Ms Mer]

Here they are. 3 videos, 1 from poolside and 2 from in the water.

Thanks in advance for people's feedback!

 

[Simos]

My 2p is to keep working on better streamlining, head position is definitely making you float, try tucking the head further towards the chest but at the neutral position. Also your lower back seems a bit stiff and as a result it looks quite arched... I think it all relates to relaxation and flexibility...

Also there is a bit of 'cycling' motion to the finning and amplitude is small, I think if you relax your ankles and focus on bigger and slower kicks you'll benefit from it. Might be worth training with rubber fins too and focusing on getting the movement right, it's harder to do so with stiffer fins...

Ps you are better than me so take the above with a pinch of salt lol

 

[Kars]

I agree with all of Simos' points. I would like to add that with the arms over (on) your head position you'll have about a 3 finger wide space between your chin and chest. Your arms should be a nice narrow triangle. The less space in the triangle the less drag - pretty noticeable to the advanced diver.

In addition to your dynamic I noticed you're putting in a lot of effort to take a big breath. I suggest trying a more relaxed approach, exhale nearly everything at a modest speed, then inhale slowly until 90% full, hold, relax chest shoulders etc, and then breathe in 1 more time on top of the previous breath. Dave taught me this and I find it much better keeping my relaxation.

Speed.
Your finning pace seems fast in relation to the fins you're wearing.
Try for slower and a bit bigger with straighter knees. Transfer some of your knee motion to your hips. You'll go a bit slower, but you'll be more relaxed. Actually it's great fun to try to do a very slow 50m dynamic. (arms relaxed to the side almost an extended static) When your streamlining improves you'll hit the same speed but with a lot less effort.

Did I see some air moving in your suit?

Lover Courage and Water,

The Deeperblue Coaching Team.

 

[growingupninja]

I only had time to watch the first video but yeah, as Simos said the first thing I noticed was the bicycle kicking. I would work hard to correct that ASAP so you don't train a bad habit. It seemed a little more pronounced on your right leg, and the streamline was a bit loose. A lot of spearos use those kicks sometimes to hover at depth but for DYN bi-fins it is bad form. In your case it is probably a combination of fins too stiff or hip flexors and lower abs that need some strength development. I would condition the muscles you are close--you can grow into the fins. Streamline is related to flexibility which usually takes much, much longer to develop than muscular strength.

Leg lifts or just laying on your back, hands under your butt, flutter kicking just a few inches off the ground is a good exercise for hip flexors. Go slowly (short intervals) at first so you don't hurt your back (you should avoid 'arching', which is not great for your back and also takes stress off the lower abs which you probably need to condition). As you get stronger you can add light ankle weights. Reverse crunches and suitcases are also great for strengthening the lower abs and hip flexors. Stretch after you do any of that conditioning. For back flexibility and strength (becomes very important for a good dolphin kick), Roman chair exercises are great. Again, go slowly so you don't injure yourself. Many casual gyms don't even have Roman chairs anymore because they are worried about injury and liability, but competitive athletes in many sports still do those exercises. When I was a kid my coaches would have me do dozens of them with weights. Also, for hip flexors and lower abs, sprinting with a kickboard (no fins or very short fins) can help build strength.

And like Kars noticeded, I agree that that fast final breath may not be helping you. It is the kind of thing that can drive your heart rate up unnecessarily--long, slow, final inhale is usually best. Big, fast breaths raise HR.

 

[Kars]

A tip for increasing shoulder flexibility, do a couple of lanes of back crawl, 1 slow, 1 fast, you'll magically fast feel more flexible in your shoulders. This for me works much better then all the land stretches I know.

 

[Ms Mer]

My 2p is to keep working on better streamlining, head position is definitely making you float, try tucking the head further towards the chest but at the neutral position. Also your lower back seems a bit stiff and as a result it looks quite arched... I think it all relates to relaxation and flexibility...

Also there is a bit of 'cycling' motion to the finning and amplitude is small, I think if you relax your ankles and focus on bigger and slower kicks you'll benefit from it. Might be worth training with rubber fins too and focusing on getting the movement right, it's harder to do so with stiffer fins...

Ps you are better than me so take the above with a pinch of salt lol

Thanks Simos
I have been working on head position since I saw the video and keep my chin tucked down onto my chest - so I can actually feel it touching. The fins are rubber fins Mares Avanti Plana (sold as pool training fin underwater hockey fins), so they have good flexibility, don;t feel stiff at all. I know that I am favouring my right ankle because of the anterior ligament strain I did to it months back. It's still sore and after alot of finning it gets worse. Need to do some stretches and strengthening again on it I think. But am sure that is having an impact on my flexibility that side.

I agree with all of Simos' points. I would like to add that with the arms over (on) your head position you'll have about a 3 finger wide space between your chin and chest. Your arms should be a nice narrow triangle. The less space in the triangle the less drag - pretty noticeable to the advanced diver.

In addition to your dynamic I noticed you're putting in a lot of effort to take a big breath. I suggest trying a more relaxed approach, exhale nearly everything at a modest speed, then inhale slowly until 90% full, hold, relax chest shoulders etc, and then breathe in 1 more time on top of the previous breath. Dave taught me this and I find it much better keeping my relaxation.

Speed.
Your finning pace seems fast in relation to the fins you're wearing.
Try for slower and a bit bigger with straighter knees. Transfer some of your knee motion to your hips. You'll go a bit slower, but you'll be more relaxed. Actually it's great fun to try to do a very slow 50m dynamic. (arms relaxed to the side almost an extended static) When your streamlining improves you'll hit the same speed but with a lot less effort.

Did I see some air moving in your suit?

Thanks Kars. Am working on the head/arms and will think about that space in triangle when next in pool.

I know there are loads of things about my breathing I need to fix so thanks for that. I am sure I am hyperventilating as well. Trying to watch the more experienced divers at training as see what they do. (Keiran Hibbs has the most chilled out breath up I think I have seen so far but I'm guessing it's pretty effective for him!) Problem is I think that the first time I went to training, we were told and shown about packing. I don't think it is useful to tell a complete beginner about packing if we don't fully understand about getting a a good breath correctly. So I think I need to unlearn some of what I was first taught. Interestingly I did a PB of 60m two days ago with a much calmer and almost casual breath up. I had been focusing on trying to get as much air in previously, and I think taking in too much - is that possible?

With the speed which you both comment on. Prior to the video, one of the experienced guys told me I had too much of an amplitude and suggested that I try a slightly faster, narrower amplitude kick (almost a flutter kick) to try and help deal with the bent knee that I have (more in right leg because of IT band tightness). So in the video you see the result of that advice. But perhaps I have gone too far in the other direction? I was surprised to see my knee still bent on one leg. So I am going to try consciously to straighten my leg (kick from hip) - had been worried that if I did that I would end up with locked knee and leg too stiff through kick - is that likely?

I don't think there is any air in that suit, not given the tight fit and the time it takes me to get into it! LOL

 

[Kars]

Don't worry too much about precision, worrying is stressful
Try to get a feeling for things. This means you need to experiment, and often choose to do things others consider wrong. Compare and contrast is the method.
Consider your breath-up experience, doing a pb with a more relaxed almost careless approach. If you can dive for flow, without expectations. Those are the best for me.

 

[growingupninja]

No matter what the amplitude of the kick, your knees should be fairly relaxed when kicking; if you are thinking about making it too straight then the tension in your quadriceps will make it difficult to engage the hip. Besides strengthening the muscles, if you think about trying to stay both as relaxed as possible and as long in the legs as possible (toes pointed, etc) it might help. Without fins I swim with a very relaxed ankle but with long fins it helps me to consciously point the toe.

 

[Ms Mer]

I only had time to watch the first video but yeah, as Simos said the first thing I noticed was the bicycle kicking. I would work hard to correct that ASAP so you don't train a bad habit. It seemed a little more pronounced on your right leg, and the streamline was a bit loose....... In your case it is probably a combination of fins too stiff or hip flexors and lower abs that need some strength development.

Yep it's the IT band tightness I have. Affects my running and cycling also. I am quite stiff in the hip flexors, as I am finding out with yoga. Hopefully that will help but I like all your suggestions for strengthening.

And like Kars noticeded, I agree that that fast final breath may not be helping you. It is the kind of thing that can drive your heart rate up unnecessarily--long, slow, final inhale is usually best. Big, fast breaths raise HR.

Had not thought about that. I think I will watch some more breath ups to observe others techniques too. I guess I have been focusing so much going for volume over quality of breath up.

No matter what the amplitude of the kick, your knees should be fairly relaxed when kicking; if you are thinking about making it too straight then the tension in your quadriceps will make it difficult to engage the hip. Besides strengthening the muscles, if you think about trying to stay both as relaxed as possible and as long in the legs as possible (toes pointed, etc) it might help. Without fins I swim with a very relaxed ankle but with long fins it helps me to consciously point the toe.

Cheers for this, makes it easy to visualise.

 

[Kars]

Maybe the word kicking implies the wrong approach, I found swimming is more about pushing water. Water is dense and slow, so I have to take that into account if I aim for efficiency and relaxation.

 

[Ms Mer]

Making progress
Am sore from training yesterday but in a good way as feeling it in gluts and hip flexors today which I think is a result of focusing on point my toes and keeping legs straighter (not locking though) so engaging different muscles. Pointing toes made me feel longer in the water. I found that this helped with reducing resistance as well. I certainly seemed to glide through it easier and with less effort and also finding that I am able to go further and/or quicker. Was doing 33m lengths with rest in between, now doing about 50m before coming up for a breath. Something which I did not expect is that I had no foot pain in my injured ankle or soreness in IT band after training this week.

Also shoulder flexibility is improving as I can stretch out more in front and with my head tucked down more and chin on chest looking straight down at the black line. Not worrying about where the end of the pool is coming up! In fact I was so in the moment I nearly banged into the end of the pool wall LOL!

Have changed my breath up significantly now after feedback and last week's PB. Have found a little meditative routine that is working well for me using some of the yoga relaxation techniques I have learnt. I realise now how much energy I was using up in that final breath.

Thanks to all you guys for your advice.

 

[Kars]

Great!

You're learning much and it sounds like you're having a blast!