What Eq. techniques had champions used before the invention of "mouthfill"?

[ComputerBoy]

I'm very surprised to learn that such an important technique "mouthfill" was just invented by Eric Fattah in the Y2K (published at Frenzel-Fattah Equalizing Workshop), just about a decade before!!! So my big question is that before the Y2K what equalization techniques had world champions used to reach great depths such as 101m (no limit) of Jaques Mayol as early as 1976???

Jaques Mayol had a normal lung (not an "oversize lung" like Pipin's or Umberto's). If as in normal cases, his lung reached Residual Volume at 30m - 40m and he could stretch his eardrum to bare further 50% pressure, he could only dive down to 60m - 70m. How did classic champions like Mayol deal with the last 30m - 40m? Can any one explain it to me?

 

[Simos]

Just a general answer, not sure about Mayol but there are plenty of others even today that dive really deep without mouthfil. Flexibility (thoracic etc) is very important (more than lung volume) and with proper training you can take out air from your lungs in depths much greater than RV. One example is Will Trubridge who as far as I know used to dive to 100m+ without mouthfil but there are even more extreme examples like the late Loic Leferme that as far as I know had gone to 170m+ without using mouthfil.

(you can look up techniques like unpacking etc)

 

[Mullins]

Mouthfill is the same technique as Frenzel, with different emphasis. The guys in the early days were essentially doing the same thing except perhaps not filling their mouths to the same extent. They were also diving head-up on sleds, which makes a huge difference.

 

[Kars]

That Loïc 170 is I think feet first, still a stellar feat.

 

[Simos]

Mouthfill is the same technique as Frenzel, with different emphasis. The guys in the early days were essentially doing the same thing except perhaps not filling their mouths to the same extent. They were also diving head-up on sleds, which makes a huge difference.

True that the 'Frenzel' part is the same Dave but I guess the difference/tricky bit is getting the air in your mouth at depths well below RV right?

With MF you don't really have to (for most people) so it can be learned in a lot less time whereas if you want to be unpacking etc it does take a lot longer to get there I guess as you have to build up quite gradually.

Do you know if the early guys in particular would keep some kind of mouthfil and top it up while going deeper as needed Dave or were they just unpack and Frenzel equalise in one movement for every EQ without trying to keep any air in the mouth? (if that makes any sense)

Did you always use MF by the way?

 

[Simos]

Also a couple of interesting interviews on EQ with Loic and Guillaume here: THE LAST EQUALISATION :: Technical

 

[ComputerBoy]

Thank you, Simos, for the valuable information, esp. "The last equalisation".

Personally, my limit on Valsalva was 10m, then I moved to Frenzel which helped me another 10m, then I usually take my mouthfill at 20m for using at another 10m (I haven't had chance diving deeper than 30m yet). After much training on thoracic diaphragm and relaxation, now I get back to Valsalva for testing and it just extends a few more meters. My problem is <b><i>how to get air into the mouth-nose carvity</i> when your lung's air has got negative pressure (i.e. "empty", precisely <i>RV</i>)</b>. I've tried "empty-lung diving" (both FRC and RV), but after RV I can only use air left in my mouth (from previous mouthfill). My biggest problem is that <i>any attempt to "suck" more air after RV caused my trachea to squeeze!</i>

Someone may say "let's reverse-pack!" But I've tried it and the result is so frustrated: On land after exhaling to RV, I can easily get 5 more mouthfills with reverse-packing. But the point is that the negative pressure I feel after that 5 reverse-packings has nothing to compare with the negative pressure (mostly on my throat) I feel when diving below RV. So it's obvious that I cannot do any reverse-packing after passing RV (only simulated by empty-lung diving).

I have a fragile trachea (usually caugh), and my first squeeze was at only -4m (at the bottom of the swimming pool) when I practised empty-lung diving. But after that, as I paid attention to the pressure on my throat, not to stress it any more, I could dive down to -30m cleanly (of course with mouthfill). I don't know why, but after my first squeezes (nearly a year ago), my trachea's become more and more fragile... and recently I got some squeezes even... on dry land!!!

 

[ComputerBoy]

(Sorry! This forum seems not allow me to modify/delete my post, so I repost my key points here.)

... My problem is how to get air into the mouth-nose carvity when your lung's air has got negative pressure (i.e. "empty", precisely RV). I've tried "empty-lung diving" (both FRC and RV), but after RV I can only use air left in my mouth (from previous mouthfill). My biggest problem is that any attempt to "suck" more air after RV caused my trachea to squeeze!

 

[growingupninja]

Can anyone comment on deep divers who easily EQ with BTV? I read the article Simos linked 'The Last Equalisation' (great article by the way) and it sounds like Loic Leferme's technique is BTV with reverse pack as he closes on his bottom?

Has anyone who dives to their RV using BTV found that they could go deeper using the other techniques? Can anyone comment on whether any sort of mouthfill is necessary, or whether 'losing' mouthfill is even an issue if you are using BTV with reverse pack?

For technique training, I am line diving with a glass lensed mask and not packing. I've found that at the bottom I need mouthfill to EQ the mask using Fattah's tounge piston thing, but it doesn't seem to really affect my ability to EQ my ears. I've done loads of reverse pack training in pools and have very respectable diaphram flexibility but I realized that I do this wearing Swedish goggles which do not need to be EQ'd even as deep as 20' (deepest pool I have trained in). I have only recently started exploring reverse packing at real depth in the ocean. I know of course that packing and diving without a mask would gain me a great deal of depth, but I'm interested in overall technique at this time. I don't ride my eardrums since I use BTV, and if a tube is sticky (usually something to do with my hood) it will not clear using any other technique either.