What's safe?

[kevjl2]

Okay, I know this is controversial but....

Me and my buddies spearfish northern ca. 90% of the time, the vis is <3 meters or 10 feet. When we dive, we sometimes watch each other go down and wait for the return and have no idea where the other has been as they might come up 75 yards away. Sometimes we get more careful and try to watch bubbles and dive 10 seconds or so later and track the other just in case. Either way, we end up not really being able to see eac other most of the time buddy diving in northern ca. As we get bigger fish and have longer times, we realize the risk is higher. So, is there an way to this in low vis with buddies at 25-50 feet?

 

[Rik]

I don't think it is controversial. I do more think it is an difficult problem to solve.

Following bubble traces as a way to locate divers is certainly not an solution, because after an black-out, there might be no bubbles to follow at the time the buddy realizes that something got wrong.

With competitive freediving, you would consider using an buoy and guideline, but this might hamper during hunter, and might even, especially with a current, pose an risk factor. However, depending on your experience, dive style and environment, this might be something to consider.

Since I am not an hunter, nor are familiar with the cause of the bad visibility in your case, I don't know if dive lights can give any improvement of the visibility, they certainly do over here.

Using less weighting might also be considered to increase safety, although it doesn't solve the visibility problem and you would still need to be able to find the diver in case of an black-out.

As an diver (non-hunter) who regularly dives in lakes with bad visibility, I am certainly interested in other ideas about this problems, since in recreational breath-hold diving, guideline diving is less applicable, and new ideas might help to improve safety for both non-hunters and hunters.

 

[liam.slug]

i think attach a line from your guns to a float (preferably with a flag on it). if you get one of the floats that are long, thin and stand vertically then they tend not to get effected by the current too much. i often spearfish in largish swells along breakwaters and my float doesnt cause any problems. it doesnt get forced into the rocks or anything. use thick white rope this will be easy to spot and the thickness will prevent entanglement. the only problem with this is that with it attached to the gun if the diver blacks out they will probably drop the gun and might drift away from it some think the only other way is to ie the float to yourself and i for one would in no way want to be tied to my gun and have to untie a knot in the occasion when you shoot a big fish (or shark) and it dives deeper than you want to go.

in this case id either have the line run loosely through a bait clip on my dive belt to the gun. this way i can either easily unclip and go to the surface or evn just swim up towards the flag... that solution will cost you maybe 50c and may save your life. otherwise get yourself a dive hose quick release clip. same sorta thing it clips to you belt and the rope will run from your float, through the hose clip, to your gun. hose clips are about $5 on ebay. having the rope go up through a clip on your belt will also stop it getting in your way or tangling you. if you wanna be super fancy and no feel any drag or incumberment from the rope you could always have the clip on your shoulder or arm, this is easy for me because i wear my knife on my bicep.. t

here you go two ways to easily be able to track your buddy. if you feel any doubt you can just look for there flag and swim down the line. you could even if in a group of three, have one guy pull him up.... or work out a tug system where you tug, they tug back, if they dont you go down and fetch their stupid ass. hope this helped

 

[kevjl2]

Our gun is currently attached to a float or boogey board with about 70-90 feet of float line. No drag really on the gun. I'm confused on your safety clip setup what's a dive hose clip? Are yo saying to loosely attach a loop from yourself to the floatlne?

 

[Noah]

Very common problem for us as well in lower vis situations... a shorter float line is a good idea...

We also dive much less aggressively when we cannot "spot" for each other visually...

I refuse to do deep spearfishing dives on low vis days for just this reason

 

[liam.slug]

ok so the float line runs from your float to your gun right? but if you black out whats the garuantie that your not gonna be 30 feet from your gun by the time your partener realises whats happened? so what i am suggesting is either a bait clip or a hose clip or even better, a caribeena, to be attached to your dive belt. (actually i think the caribeena or bait clip are a better idea, hose clips can be a bit flimsy and wont be as easy to undo so dont worry about the hose clip.). so the float line runs from the float, through the clip on yuour belt, to your gun. so your partener can easily find you. you might say, what if my gun is caught or i shoot a massive fish?? well because the line is loosely running through the clip you can swim along the line to the top. another cool thing is say you hit your head and somehow stay concious yet you're dissorientated you'll be able to follow the line up. you may also say what if your float line is tangle around something above you and you cant swim along it?? well the key thing you must think of when choosing a clip is something that you can easily and quickly undo in a high stress situation. thats why a bait or hose clip would be adequate. and if in doubt you can always drop your weights (because you of course have a quick release belt) and swim up and youll be able to locate you weights again once youve reached the surface and got your breath back. do you get what i mean yet?
having said that i agree with what youre doing at the moment, dont do deep dives in low visibility unless youre extremely confident.

 

[liam.slug]

key idea is the connector from you to your float line has to be fool proof and very easy to undo and very free flowing. and make sure its connecting the line to your weight belt NOT YOU because if all else fails you will be able to ditch your weight belt. this also means A. you will be able to easily locate your weight belt once youve recovered as it will still be attached to your line B. you will be more inclined to drop your weights if you need to because the thought of having to buy more weights wont cross your mind. so if even an incling of doubt goes through your head that you may be too deep or have stayed under too long then you can just drop your weights.

 

[liam.slug]

oh and a dive hose clip is for scuba divers so thier hoses dont get tangled. as i said dont worry about the hose clip i had a look into it and the hose clips arent nearly as smooth to undo as the bait clips or caribeena. anything you can find thats easy to undo but runs frictionlessly. if in doubt as to the suitability of the clip. get your belt on (without weights) clip it to the belt and run your float line through it (as you would while diving) then spin around ten times, get your mate to hit you n the head with a frying pan, and if you can undo it in under five seconds then its a good clip

 

[stingaree]

GEELONG DIVE CENTRE ONLINE SUPER STORE - Mares Fast D-Ring
nice & simple, but might be a bit too flimsy to rely on it ...

 

[liam.slug]

yeah thats the sorta thing but you could just thread a baitclip through the little loop whee the belt passes over the top of the mid section of the weight
i reckon itd be more reliable and easier to undo

 

[Darryll]

I ALWAYS spear with a buoy and flag...sadly I seldom have a buddy in the water with me :duh Not too many spearos where I live.
I attach the line to my weight belt and let out about 50% more line than depth....this prevents the line being too short on deeper dives...I make use if the buoy to carry some water, spare gun and stringer...(there is even place for a small mirror and lipstick...joke...) I can then also attach my gun to this if I need too. Any hassles and you can drop you belt and it will be marked, etc etc.
The flag also (usually) keeps boats at a distance...
Hope this helps...it does for me.

 

[growingupninja]

Maybe I am not entirely understanding this thread, but since it seems like you guys are talking about using a gun with a floatline and a float at the end of the line--makes sense and is standard. Guy on the surface always has some idea of where you are by position of the float. I use a breakaway system on my main gun, floatline runs free through a wire loop in the butt of gun.

But you want additional redundancy in case something goes wrong and you drop the gun so your buddy can find you? In my opinion more lines and tethers are not a good idea as it just increases the chance of getting tangled at depth and actually having an episode. Even a minor tangle may not get you stuck but it is time and energy to deal with that stuff and, if you are actually at the end of a breathhold and on the deeper end of your dive ability you may not be thinking clear enough to deal with clips and lines. Say you shoot a big fish and it starts going in circles; guys get tangled in just shooting lines but add a second line...?Most dead spearos are found still wearing their weightbelts.

Why don't you just use lights? I keep a little dive LED clipped to the butt of my night gun, which is a little gun with a reel and no float line. Even during the day in murky conditions I keep it turned on so I can find my gun if I drop it to chase a bug or even just want to mark a hole so I can surface and start exploring on a fresh lung. If I were buddy diving and was worried my partner was gonna drop his gun and be incapacited somewhere in the murk I would put lights on him, too. If things are so sketchy maybe dive more conservatively or go with a one up one down approach, sharing one gun so the diver always has active safety at the top?

 

[liam.slug]

if you read what i said im not talking about an additional lines. and the thing is with my idea if you panick you can just drop your weights. if you have a proper belt you can just yank the belt clip to the side and your weight fall off. this would also help anchor and tire a big fish. i personally think that its your responsibility to know that you can keep a calm head under water. ive been extremely lucky in some cases. not at great depth because i rarely dive to great depths but in caves, crevices. ive hit my head, been tangled, had my wetsuit snag and the thing that keeps me alive is that i can keep a calm head. i personally dont rely on buddies, floatlines that are attached to me (those are just suggestions for those who dive in more difficult conditions than me) because i know that when i go down i can deal with almost anything that happens and i also accept the risk that i may not come up. and i would rather die at the bottom of the ocean than live in fear of what could happen.

the floatline being attached to the diver is for EXTREMELY bad visibility. in which case if you have to find your buddy, you may end up having to rely on feel. and if you work with your parteners well in these conditions (deep depth bad vis) then you have a system. mine would personally be. your whole "team" divided into groups of three or four. one diver down at a time. you have all clips. so you just unclip and clip onto the line. when your diver is down, there is one or two guys at the top. the other guy swims down until he has a visual on the down diver. when he runs out of air he swims to the top and the waiting diver becomes the visualising diver. keep rotating until your diver comes up and you swap.
so say one guy blacks out. the visualiising diver swims up and tells the waiting diver who is rested and ready to dive. the waiting diver goes down the float line to the now blacked out diver (lets call him dumbass). the now breathing visualising diver starts draging the dumbass up by the line. this means the retrieving diver will reach the dumbass very quickly and wont have to work as hard to pull the dumbass up. so then when you have im at the surface. visualising diver holds him still while the retreiving diver catches his breathe (hed be panicked as he just had to swim down and up very quickly). then you have two people to revive the dumbass.

i would only bother adhering to these very strict dive rules unless i had a very high chance of blacking out. which means never. because i do as i think others should do. push your limits in the pool with supervision or on land. not in the fucking sea. you find an awesome spot but its 20feet deeper than you usually go. go to the pool and train for it then come back. otherwise mabye your diving then you find this spot and get ur buddies and say "hey mind if we use the safety diving system for ten minutes while i check this thing out? in the end your safety is your responsibility. its up to you

 

[growingupninja]

Okay clipping a shot fish to your weight belt and dropping your belt isn't great form but I have had experienced tournament spearos talk about doing that as an emergency measure. A big part of me wonders why not just use a floatline/breakaway or reel in that case but those devices can eat up time or be a bother to swim with, but going back to the bottom to retrieve a belt isn't exactly a timesaver either... And reels do jam and more than one experienced spearo has died from trying to haul a fish up from depth with a jammed reel.

Still kind of feel like clipping divers to a line poses problems; anything sturdy enough to haul a guy up with is a hazard to that same guy. I have dove from a boat where people on the boat are concerned with my depth and wanted to tie a line to me; not an option as far as I am concerned. I have never done variable weight dives or any sort of no limits diving but I am pretty sure all those devices are 'voluntary' meaning the diver is not tied or strapped in to the device. Sounds like your situation is kind of theoretical anyway though.. The team safety system you propose is pretty close to active safety when line diving. If you have to dive deep in strong currents, caves, and chocolate milk then active safety and lights in my opinion. Dive safe!

 

[stingaree]

there is a thread about it somwhere here, great idea IMO but extremely expensive for time being:
http://www.freedive.net/SWB/vest1_hi_rez.pdf
Being clipped to a (free running) float line has saved lives in past (used to be mandatory practice for CMAS spear comps I think) and helped to locate and retrive unsurfaced divers without risks (SWB) for rescuing diver though ...

 

[growingupninja]

there is a thread about it somwhere here, great idea IMO but extremely expensive for time being:
http://www.freedive.net/SWB/vest1_hi_rez.pdf
Being clipped to a (free running) float line has saved lives in past (used to be mandatory practice for CMAS spear comps I think) and helped to locate and retrive usurfaced divers without risks (SWB) for rescuing diver though ...

Then this is not the first time I stand corrected. I don't follow tournaments but I also heard about introduction of a buoy rule or something that forced a one up one down approach. Sorry I am so vague but I think it was a major international one.

The FRV will come down a lot in price (hopefully soon) now that Terry is making them for the US Navy...

 

[jps]

The FRV will come down a lot in price (hopefully soon) now that Terry is making them for the US Navy...

Now that would be some really good news