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Which one? Roller, double bands or triple bands?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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cucubu

Active Member
Jan 18, 2009
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Hi, I want to buy one of these guns:

Seawolf 105 Predator Roller
Riffe euro 100X enclosed track or 110X
Spetton Cubera II Teka-Wood 120 or 110
Riffe Marauder 55 or 47

Do you have any real experince with one of these guns? What are the pros and cons? Is any of them "good for everything"?
Thanks
 

diver278

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2012
80
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Well all depends on water vis, size fish. I use a Pathos Sniper Roller 115cm in the Philippines because the water is clear and fish are skittish to get close to. Here in San Diego, Ca. I use a Pathos Sniper Roller 85cm because of 10 to 15 ft vis.
 
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Leander

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2017
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Does the visibility really matter that much? There's no gun that shoots 30m anyway. At the same time there are people hunting the same fish as you (whichever fish that might be) with a pole spear. I notice around here (greece) a trend of going for the smaller guns, like <=90, the water here is *clear*.

But Mediterranean... Warm or cold part? Because the southern parts you'll probably be better off with a lionfish spear if the governments keep ignoring the problem.
 
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diver278

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2012
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Yes vis matters. You wouldn’t want to use a gun that’s long when you can’t see more than 10 to 15 feet. Also you only need one wrap of line instead of two like in clear water say 20 to 30 foot vis.
 
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xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
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Does the visibility really matter that much? There's no gun that shoots 30m anyway. At the same time there are people hunting the same fish as you (whichever fish that might be) with a pole spear. I notice around here (greece) a trend of going for the smaller guns, like <=90, the water here is *clear*.

But Mediterranean... Warm or cold part? Because the southern parts you'll probably be better off with a lionfish spear if the governments keep ignoring the problem.
They go for small because they use illegal means of spearfishing (torch in the fish hole). Big guns is for ambush aspetto etc in the hole it is useless.
 
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Leander

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Oct 17, 2017
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That explains a lot! But indeed, about every Greek spearfishing video features extensive use of torches, even the official sponsor videos of the brands like XT Diving.

Also you only need one wrap of line instead of two like in clear water say 20 to 30 foot vis.
Apart from the little bit quicker loading, is there an advantage of one wrap over two? Say in the case where you'd take a shorter roller or invert roller (with two wraps), powered in such a way that the effective range would be the same as a longer direct load gun (with one wrap).
 
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xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
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That explains a lot! But indeed, about every Greek spearfishing video features extensive use of torches, even the official sponsor videos of the brands like XT Diving.


Apart from the little bit quicker loading, is there an advantage of one wrap over two? Say in the case where you'd take a shorter roller or invert roller (with two wraps), powered in such a way that the effective range would be the same as a longer direct load gun (with one wrap).
Yes some people run single wrap with tight reel so that the grouper (rofos) they shoot out of the hole doesn't have the freedom to reach in the rocks putting the spearo in a lot of trouble to retrieve it.
 
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Leander

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Oct 17, 2017
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Yes some people run single wrap with tight reel so that the grouper (rofos) they shoot out of the hole doesn't have the freedom to reach in the rocks putting the spearo in a lot of trouble to retrieve it.
But then using the reel line as shooting line instead of using mono would be best? Then you can vary the wraps depending on the intended target.

Rofos, it's the Dusky Grouper. Is this name used for the other goupers like the Mottled Grouper too? Never heard someone mention the Piga, which I see -everywhere-, but I hear everyone talk about Rofos, which I've never seen so far..
 

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
163
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But then using the reel line as shooting line instead of using mono would be best? Then you can vary the wraps depending on the intended target.

Rofos, it's the Dusky Grouper. Is this name used for the other goupers like the Mottled Grouper too? Never heard someone mention the Piga, which I see -everywhere-, but I hear everyone talk about Rofos, which I've never seen so far..
Dusky Grouper is Rofos and Mottled Grouper is Pigga. Epinephelous Costae is Stira which I bet is the fish you confuse with Pigga.
I like the shooting line idea.
 
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Leander

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Oct 17, 2017
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Judging by google images and fishbase, both the pigga and the stira are in 'abundance' here, but small. Rarely big enough to be a legal catch. But rofos I haven't ever seen and I spend quite a big percentage of my awake-time in the water.

I just find it remarkable that *everyone*, *everywhere* is talking *all the time* about rofos, while the local rofos population is either avoiding me or non-existent. So I got the impression rofos became the general name for grouper just like duct-tape, Pattex, Jeep...
This is not even counting the tavernas selling a random reef fish as rofos to the unknowing tourist, or the spearfisher I met who was cleaning a fagri telling me that it was a rofos.
 

diver278

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2012
80
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I’m not sure if the reel line is abrasive as shooting line if your fish holes up on you. Reel line is ideally attached to shooting line so you can surface. But if anyone has or is doing it please let me know.
 

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
163
37
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Judging by google images and fishbase, both the pigga and the stira are in 'abundance' here, but small. Rarely big enough to be a legal catch. But rofos I haven't ever seen and I spend quite a big percentage of my awake-time in the water.

I just find it remarkable that *everyone*, *everywhere* is talking *all the time* about rofos, while the local rofos population is either avoiding me or non-existent. So I got the impression rofos became the general name for grouper just like duct-tape, Pattex, Jeep...
This is not even counting the tavernas selling a random reef fish as rofos to the unknowing tourist, or the spearfisher I met who was cleaning a fagri telling me that it was a rofos.
It is remarkable indeed. And they dont use rofos for every grouper they are just so obsessed over a fish that they have driven it extinct. If you know some of the ever shrinking number of very good spots, you can see big rofos 10 kg or more even to this day. But you will have to dive 30-50m depending onthe spot and the day. Now spearo catching fagri has to be either very veery very seriously lucky or veryvery deep and lucky. Its so rare and him not knowing the name is so bizarre?!
 

Mr. X

Forum Mentor
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Jul 14, 2005
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But then using the reel line as shooting line instead of using mono would be best? Then you can vary the wraps depending on the intended target.
...
US trophy hunter spearo Cameron Kirkconnell describes several options for rigging a reel in a couple of YouTube videos. One he suggests uses a single wrap of spearline but leaves the option of using some of the reel line for a second wrap if the need arises.

However, he also shows a way of rigging 1.5 wraps of spearline, with a reel, because he thinks double wraps are unnecessary.

BTW Rob Allen has another method of rigging a reel which makes it easy to switch between reel and non-reel configurations.

Somebody, maybe Hammerhead?, used to sell a sharkfins shaped hook that could be added to the barrel to support 1.5 wraps (reel unnecessary).

Many options.
 
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DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
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My opinion does not count because I have only pole speared for quite a while, just getting into guns.

First thing I have noticed in my very amaterush way, why isn't everyone running reverse mechs? I do not get that. I have not tested this of course but it seems you can get the same performance out of shorter guns.

I am not at all convinced with the efficacy of these enclosed tracks. There are not too many actual tests on youtube, but the ones you do find seem to speak very negatively on enclosed tracks as far as I am concerned.

I also wonder about the finding of majdq8 on youtube when it comes to 14mm bands with his Pathos 120 carbon. Those videos he has up testing power and accuracy seem very convincing, and I would guess the same concept would apply across most guns. So, why aren't guns being tested and rigged from the factories with 14mm double bands? Maybe I am extrapolating his results too far, but again, very convincing stuff.
 
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DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
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I would note in reference to the wooden guns, you should check that Pathos 120 video I was referencing. They compare a wooden riffe to his well tuned Pathos at the end, and let's just say the result really is a little scary.
 

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
163
37
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My opinion does not count because I have only pole speared for quite a while, just getting into guns.

First thing I have noticed in my very amaterush way, why isn't everyone running reverse mechs? I do not get that. I have not tested this of course but it seems you can get the same performance out of shorter guns.

I am not at all convinced with the efficacy of these enclosed tracks. There are not too many actual tests on youtube, but the ones you do find seem to speak very negatively on enclosed tracks as far as I am concerned.

I also wonder about the finding of majdq8 on youtube when it comes to 14mm bands with his Pathos 120 carbon. Those videos he has up testing power and accuracy seem very convincing, and I would guess the same concept would apply across most guns. So, why aren't guns being tested and rigged from the factories with 14mm double bands? Maybe I am extrapolating his results too far, but again, very convincing stuff.
I run 160cm 7.5mm shaft 2* 14mm 1* 16mm bands. At surface to 10 m it shoots great 20 m closer range 25m and beyond no power or speed at all fish dodge shaft almost every time. I wish we had clue why this happens to rubbers.. Tried to find any experimental data of someone submerging a stretched rubber on a dynamometer and see the force graph.. no luck though. Maybe i should do it myself.
 
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Mr. X

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@DiveHacker great questions. Why don't you insert a link to the youtube video, the forum software will take care of displaying it ;)

My 2 cents: Your opinion counts! You've clearly though about this and started researching it.

Re. reverse triggers
I bought 2 spearguns last year, both have reverse triggers. My other 2 spearguns are wonderful for my needs, Omer XXVs, which will continue to be my "main squeezes". I bought them shortly before the Omer Cayman* came out, which some claim was the first reverse trigger speargun (if not ever then perhaps the one which started the trend). My XXVs are great, would they be better with a updated reverse trigger T10 mech - quite possibly but (1) sadly they are no longer available and (2) they are all about agility and fast tracking more power might be useful but perhaps it would spoil them (they are very light)?

*As I remember it, when the Cayman came out, Omer didn't make much of the extra band-stretch power of the reverse -trigger. I seem to recall the adjustable, constant tension trigger being the main feature. Or did I just miss the headline?!

I believe most SA-style railguns (e.g. Rob Allen, Rabitech, Mako, Orcas, Pelaj, Hammerhead) do not yet offer reverse trigger mechs as standard nor as an option (but there are some aftermarket cassettes for the Rob Allen that do provide a reverse trigger). I once asked RA about this and this comment at the time was that people found them too hard to load; I don't recall if Rob Allen offered a loading butt option at the time, they do now. Supposedly a lot of railgun users have no desire for a loading butt, I would definitely get one, given the option! Reverse triggers have really taken off recently - who doesn't want 5cm of extra band stretch power?! - not sure what other downsides reverse triggers might be but I know somebody who might @popgun pete and @foxfish
I'd be surprised if Rob Allen aren't already working on a reverse trigger but, as I said, 3rd parties already have so perhaps they figure that address the need until the latest fad blows over?

Re. getting more power from shorter guns, yes it would. My 95cm roller has a reverse trigger too - so much band stretch, so much power! :D
 

Mr. X

Forum Mentor
Staff member
Forum Mentor
Jul 14, 2005
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RE. Enclosed tracks
@foxfish is the man to talk enclosed tracks with. It used to seem like an unnecessary complication to me e.g. what if you bend your spear - I guess that would be a problem with any speargun though. Plus expense and friction. But there is another thread where some forum members showed us their wooden, Italian made double roller speargun and they are beautiful, impressively accurate even at distance and very powerful of course. They have enclosed tracks. I forget the makers name - anybody recognise my description?

I used to be into rails and figured that was good enough but I now consider them unnecessary and possibly even a hindrance below 90cm (increased mass, inertia, drag and expense). Above 90 probably a good idea still though.

RE. 14mm bands
This is another recent fashion/fad - but, again, that doesn't mean it's bad or won't last. Twin 14mm bands has long been a popular option in Hawaii but not much elsewhere. Perhaps suiting the youngsters with clear water and big fish possibilities. Perhaps the rest of us are just slow learners? I think there are lots of reasons why it has become popular recently:
1. Much easier to load, especially if you have poor loading technique - but slower.
2. More research (like your video link perhaps?). Is the energy release more evenly/smoothly? Less recoil perhaps?
3. Fashion: quite a few of us are trying twin rubbers in the UK now (Foxfish observed the fashion change from rollers to twin 14mm bands at their annual get together in Guernsey) but I think most of us suspect, perhaps know, that a single band (or pneumatic) will always be optimal for UK conditions. But perhaps a roller speargun might have a place? - TBD
4. A longer term trend towards SA-style configurations with bulk rubbers (cheaper, more powerful and offering more options) and, often, dyneema wishbones by European makers. This facilitates multi-band configurations more naturally than screw-in band configurations. But much of the market for European brands, perhaps, don't need the power of 2x16mm that the South Africans and Australians often do (160cm barrel, 2x20mm bands anyone?). And for those that do need the power, the Invicta, Omer's replacement for the Cayman, comes with 2x14mm bands but the muzzle can support a third 14mm band! :) *
5. Rollers and reverse trigger mechanisms have increased the power available for many, perhaps we now feel ok about sacrificing a little of the potential power to improve overall usability and balance? E.g. making loading and firing more pleasant.

*I believe Mako and others have also offered triple (perhaps even quadruple?) muzzles for SA-style railguns for sometime and I wouldn't be surprised if they can all be 20mm rubber if that's your preference and the trigger mech. can handle it.
 
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