White Seabass gun

[Sorry]

Hey, as the title says, I'm looking for an ideal white seabass/yt gun. A gun to use in the kelp off La jolla/Catalina/Paddy Hopping. I was looking at a gun in the 120cm range. I was looking at the Mako Iconic Pro and the Riffe Euro both in 120cm. I'd be rigging both as a breakaway w/kelp carrot for kelp or attach a bigger bouy to the carrot for more open water. I just need some suggestions on what gun to get.
Thanks,
Tom

 

[Don Paul]

Riffe, for sure, a very solid high quality gun. Some times in life you get what you pay for. If you ever get out of the sport, sell it to recoup your investment.
Cheers, Don Paul

 

[Mr. X]

I have no experience of WhiteBass, so Don, BillMcIntyre & co can best advise you on that. [Bill seems to like his Daryl Wong guns - expect a World-class, top notch custom product and service at commensurate cost.]

I reckon the Mako is probably a good South African-style railgun - I'd be happy to buy and use one. Made in Taiwan, but distributed in the USA (by a DeeperBlue.com forum member), they are very similar to the SA Rabitech railguns (some say same moulds, at same factory); I believe the American Florida Dentist trophy spearo (Cameron?) catches all/many of his amazing fish - including several world records(?) - on Rabitech gear. The South African spearos have evolved a tried and tested yet simple design which works well, especially for large fish. Their construction techniques (moulded plastics, extruded aluminium or moulded carbon fibre barrels, stainless steel sears) yield a robust but usually less expensive product.

They are all very good brands by reputation. I reckon the cost and construction might be issues to consider. I think cost-wise it's probably going to look something like this: Wong > Riffe > Mako.

It is also worth considering service, and parts availability. I have a South African Rob Allen railgun, and Rob Allen & Jeremy Spencer really stand behind their products - I believe they still offer a 5 year warranty on all their gear, which is impressive and reassuring. I believe Darryl Wong offers a lifetime warranty & famously good service. A forum member had some issues dealing with the new brand, Pelaj, a while back - although it sounded like they were trying to resolve it.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

As Mr. X said, I'm a fan of Wong guns, and specifically Wong mid-handle hybrids. I find them easier to swing quickly in murky water.

If I had to recommend one gun, it would be a Wong Magnum Hybrid from 55 to 60 inches long. While I have 6 Wongs, the ones I usually take on the boat are a 57" Magnum hybrid and a 50" GR hybrid in case the vis is really poor.

The photo shows the guns rigged with reels, but last year, as a concession to age and infirmity, I went back to using breakaway float lines.

If you would like to make the trip to San Clemente, I'd be happy to show you guns and rigging and exchange lies of big fish.

 

[Sorry]

After spending quite a while researching other threads/info on the interweb, I've seen a lot of talk about Wong guns. They seem to be the most ideal wsb/yt gun out there. I unfortunately do not like RA simply because of the lack of loading pad! For bigger guns, It'd take me too long to get used to it and risk not even liking it. Forgive my closed-mindedness.

I will definitely keep my eyes peeled for a deal on a nice wong in the right price range, and then pounce on it.

I just barely missed a couple good wong deals in the past week, so that definitely sucks. If anybody you know is selling a wong for an awesome price, please let me know!

Until then, I will just keep looking.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Don Paul]

Hey, as the title says, I'm looking for an ideal white seabass/yt gun. A gun to use in the kelp off La jolla/Catalina/Paddy Hopping. I was looking at a gun in the 120cm range. I was looking at the Mako Iconic Pro and the Riffe Euro both in 120cm.
Tom

My answer was directed to your choice between the two guns you mentioned above and the durability and record of the Riffe Euro in the field.

Cheers, Don

 

[Sorry]

My answer was directed to your choice between the two guns you mentioned above and the durability and record of the Riffe Euro in the field.

Cheers, Don

I know, I did not intend to offend you if I did. What I now realize I failed to include is that if anybody had an opinion on a different gun, to go ahead and share it.

Between the mako and the riffe, my decision would 100% be Riffe, but if there are other guns out there that would give more punch/are known for being awesome wsb/yt guns, than I guess I would go for those.

Of course, I have no experience with wong/mako, so I wouldn't know for sure what I wanted. On the other hand, I have a riffe (smaller one though) and love it.

 

[Don Paul]

I know, I did not intend to offend you if I did. What I now realize I failed to include is that if anybody had an opinion on a different gun, to go ahead and share it.

Between the mako and the riffe, my decision would 100% be Riffe, but if there are other guns out there that would give more punch/are known for being awesome wsb/yt guns, than I guess I would go for those.

Of course, I have no experience with wong/mako, so I wouldn't know for sure what I wanted. On the other hand, I have a riffe (smaller one though) and love it.

No offense taken whatsoever, I was just stating personal opinion. I too have no experience shooting Wong or Mako but I pool shot the Riffe euro and liked it's performance out of the box.

All the best, Don Paul

 

[beconfly]

Simple laws of physics will dictate whether or not a gun has a suitable level of power to reliably target large WSB or YT. Two guns with the same length and same (number + size + quality) of bands are going to have extremely similar energy in the spear when released, with small differences due to mass of the gun and/or spear.

Of course there are other factors, like the quality of the trigger, the quietness of the gun, the hydrodynamic drag of the gun while swimming, pointing, and aiming, etc.

Allow me to hypothesize my dream experiment... Lets say you were in a laboratory with a super giant kelp forest aquarium, with average 15ft vis, and with a constant density of WSB swimming around. And lets say that the 57 inch Wong Hybrid is the "100% performance potential" for WSB hunting. With that gun an "average capable spearfisher" is able to stalk down and shoot 100 fish a month. How many do you think this "average capable spearfisher" could land with a Mako 120? How many with Riffe Euro 120? How many with <insert brand here>?

I actually would like to get some peoples opinions/guesses on this recockulous hypothetical laboratory experiment. Personally, If the Wong took 100 wsb, I'd guess that the Riffe will take 98, maybe due to slightly slower tracking, and the Mako will get 95, maybe due to making a little more noise with its aluminum barrel. Hence i'd guess that the Mako has 95% of the white sea bass hunting performance of the Wong, but for 30% the cost.

And yes I'm well aware that these numbers are all horse feces, but I would like to get estimates from other people about how much better they really think the Wong is than the Mako or whatnot, IN TERMS OF ABILITY TO RELIABLY KILL FISH.

Edit: Sorry I didn't mean to derail your thread, maybe i will post the crazy hypthetical scenario elsewhere. If you have plenty of $$$ and dream of wongs, go for it. They seem to be great guns. If you wanna hunt on a budget, i'm pretty sure that you could kill very nearly as many fish with a mako 120, or used riffe 120.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

That was a bit too hypothetical for me, but I'll address one variable you over looked. The Wong can handle three 5/8" bands. The Mako and Riffe Euro cannot. The Wong has more band stretch than a 120cm Euro style gun. More bands and longer bands mean more power and more range. More power is always nice. More power lets me toggle slip tip on the far side of a head. Of course a Riffe Island has three 5/8" bands and more stretch too, and I'll be glad to tell you why I sold mine and got a Wong, but that gun is not under consideration so far.

The Wong has a mid handle. It probably doesn't matter much in clear water under kelp paddies for yellowtail, but in poor vis in the kelp I'm often glad that I'm able to swing the gun more quickly.

Can you shoot a wsb or yellowtail with a smaller gun? Of course. A guy from Austin, TX flew out and dove with me last summer. He had never even seen a wsb before and managed to shoot a 50 pounder with a 100 cm Riffe Euro that day, but the vis was very poor. If you can't see much past the tip of your shaft, then almost any gun is long enough.

If price is the primary consideration, then of course its the Mako. No question. If you are world champion caliber, then any gun will do. Luckily, I'm able to pay a bit more, and since the gun is guaranteed for life (and Daryl is younger than I am) the difference is worth it to me. And since I'm definitely not world champion caliber, I need every bit of edge I can get.

 

[beconfly]

Awww come on Bill, don't you enjoy wild ass guesses?!?! Lets say you could shoot 100 WSB in some amount of time with your Wong. I hand you a Mako 120. How many WSB will you land in the same amount of time? I know its just a crazy guess, but thats part of what makes it fun!

And I completely agree about the different abilities aspect... there might be some noob diver (perhaps myself, for example) who might be able to shoot only one WSB a year with a Wong, and would blow it and get zero fish with any lesser gun. In that case the Wong is an infinitely more effective WSB gun!

As a quick side note for the Riffe Euro with three bands... i know Riffe does not design that gun for three bands, but i also know three people who have put three 5/8" bands on their E110X's, and they seem to be working great for them. Disclaimer: this should not be construed advice for anyone out there to overload their speargun with extra bands.

P.S. - did you stone that WSB with that headshot?

 

[Sorry]

Edit: Sorry I didn't mean to derail your thread, maybe i will post the crazy hypthetical scenario elsewhere. If you have plenty of $$$ and dream of wongs, go for it. They seem to be great guns. If you wanna hunt on a budget, i'm pretty sure that you could kill very nearly as many fish with a mako 120, or used riffe 120.

It's quite alright. There is plenty enough information in your above paragraph(s) to aid me enough in my decision.

You do bring a up a very important point though. That the guns will all be around the same. Maybe one will get 10 less fish in a season due to things such as slower tracking, but in the end its mainly the spearo(a) and not s much the gun that makes a difference. For the price, I think I will go right in the middle and go for a riffe if I cannot find a wong in my price range.

Please feel free to continue on with the "Lab Experiment" question as I probably have very little more to get out of MY question.


EDIT: Btw Bill, since everyone says you're a wong fanatic, I am betting that you probably know some people selling wongs. Haha, maybe not, but if by any chance you come by a nice wong for an awesome price, please let me know! I'd gladly take it off their hands

 

[Bill McIntyre]

P.S. - did you stone that WSB with that headshot?

No I didn't. It fought like a SOB. But the photo is deceiving. It entered the gill cover a bit further aft on the far side and exited the gill cover on this side with nothing but empty space in between. It even missed the gill rakers. So the fish wasn't hurt a bit, but it damn sure wasn't going to tear off.

Now here is a head shot that did stone the fish. It was my first white sea bass. I saw the fish way above me and was swimming up at an angle. The shaft tore a channel through the top of the head and came out so that the fish wasn't even attached. I panicked as I saw the shaft arcing down through the water, but then I norticed that the fish was vertical in the water, quivering. I rushed over and hugged it.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

EDIT: Btw Bill, since everyone says you're a wong fanatic, I am betting that you probably know some people selling wongs. Haha, maybe not, but if by any chance you come by a nice wong for an awesome price, please let me know! I'd gladly take it off their hands

Don't hold your breath waiting for an awesome deal on a Wong. Daryl's day job is as a dentist and he is the only elf in the shop, so he only makes around 300 guns per year. Every one who buys a new one has talked to Daryl in person and experienced his personal touch, and they know that they have something that is in high demand. They don't have to sell cheap.

Riffe factory makes thousands of guns per year, so there is a much better chance that you can find a guy willing to sell cheap. I'm not saying that Jay's guns are not very well made, but just that with so many more out there and being sold in shops instead of personally by Jay, the odds are much better that a guy bought it just because that's what the shop was pushing, and now has decided he isn't into spearfishing after all or that the model he has is not at all what he needs

 

[Don Paul]

Riffe factory makes thousands of guns per year, so there is a much better chance that you can find a guy willing to sell cheap. I'm not saying that Jay's guns are not very well made, but just that with so many more out there and being sold in shops instead of personally by Jay, the odds are much better that a guy bought it just because that's what the shop was pushing, and now has decided he isn't into spearfishing after all or that the model he has is not at all what he needs

I admire the guys that Riffe has had for 25 years
assembling the same parts day in day out.:friday...it's not rocket science....
Here's a rocket scientist (Buzz Aldrin) that likes a quality gun.
Cheers, Don

 

[Pursuit]

It suffices to say that Riffe produces a large volume of spearguns, this is a well known fact that translates into better prices for the consumer than $1000 small production spearguns.

To the OP. If you really want a DW hybrid, wait and you will find a used one. Not for lack of craftsmanship, or even the really crappy handle. Guys do buy based on some degree of hype and then realize there are other preferable alternatives.

Riffe makes good spearguns. Like most spearguns the Riffe euro has a couple of negative points, I focus on them because that can be the deal breaker. The handle of the euro is too small (I have average size hands) and doesn't allow me to put good torque on the gun, making swinging it fast not so easy. This I understand would not be good for California conditions where vis can often be bad and shots need to be taken fast. The stock shape of the Riffe euro is similar to competitor series speargun turned on its side. Thus the gun is wider than it is tall. When the bands are stretched they add to the wide profile of the gun. This makes it more difficult to grip the gun in the middle and carry it in the water loaded for extended periods of time. By contrast when the bands are stretched on a competitor series gun they make the profile more rounded, which is easier to keep a grip on. I get confused about where to grip when I try to carry a hybrid

The Mako ET handle is too beefy to be gripped comfortably. The gun is heavy due to the enclosed track sitting on top of the pipe and it loses the advantage of a light maneuverable pipe gun. It may as well be a wood gun with an enclosed track, in which case it will be better balanced.

 

[Don Paul]

Yeah Dan, I never hunted with the Euro Riffe so I never carried it ''soldier at arms'' just played target shoot in the pool. I have really big hands so I thought the handle would be fine for a normal person. Thanks for your feed back as my
boy wants a Euro some day after the pole spear.

I just realized this thread I responded to is in the wrong place (Freediving Equipment) maybe Spearguns would be a better place ?

Cheers, Don Paul

 

[foxfish]

I moved the tread over to the "hunting equipment" title.
Is the Riffe euro the one with a magnet near the muzzle?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Riffe makes thousands of guns while Wong makes three hundred.

Daryl talks to every buyer to make sure that he gets the model that meets his needs. Riffe's guns are sold through dive shops, sometimes by people who fill tanks just fine but know little about spearfishing. Some of those buyers of Riffe guns may end up not liking spearfishing after all. Some of them may find that they like spearfishing, like Riffe guns, but simply don't have the model that serves their needs. Therefore, there is simply a greater chance that you will be able to find a real bargain on a Riffe gun.

Got it now?

 

[Mr. X]

BTW I haven't mentioned Riffe much in my posts, not through any animosity, I'm just not familiar with them - they are pretty rare/unusual in UK/Europe although I believe apnea.co.uk started stocking a few last year, so perhaps we'll hear more about them in the near future (although it might have made more financial sense when the £ was worth more than $2 a couple of years back). Wongs are probably even rarer here but a couple of our veteran members (Pastor and much missed Alison) went to the considerable expense/trouble to get exactly what they wanted.