Who is doped?

[cebaztian]

Do you fit the profile?

Are you an elite freediver competing regularly?
Are you holding, chasing national records or world records?
Do you spend big money travelling to competitions?
Do you sacrifice relationships, other hobbies just to be able to train more?
Do you spend lots of time and money on eating right?
Do you think about freediving every day. Looking for new knowledge?
Do you feel proud of you achievements? But you know you can get better?
Do you always say: I could have done better (after an achievement)?
Is your identity leaning against being a good breathholder?
Are you known as the talented freediver?
Do you have a hard time repeating PB at competitions?

I have an offer for you!

If you where sitting in dark room in front of a desk. There is a little RED PILL on the desk. Nobody but you knows about that pill. If you swallow it your performance may increase 5-30%. It will not show up on any doping test.

Those extra percent performance will make you able to reach your PB´s in competition. You are training hard. You deserve recognition, don’t you?
Who knows if it is your training, your focus, that will be those extra percentage. That pill will just make you feel a bit more relaxed, safer. It will make you squeeze that extra out of your body. And if you had had the time those last weeks you would have been able to train more.

I mean, at the end of the day: IT IS YOUR BODY DOING THE PERFORMANCE!

Will you take the pill?

I wont tell anyone if you don’t.

Sebastian


PS. In order not to contaminate other threads with dope talk - lets keep it in one thread.

 

[shoutatthesky]

I want want my ability as a freediver to come from natural means. The challenge for me is using my mind to find the information that helps me improve.
The idea of using any substance manipulated too far from it's natural state does not appeal to me. If it is a plant or plant extract then I think it should be allowed provided there are no known significant adverse health effects.

 

[Rogert]

Same goes for me in this case... in the future i plan on going into competitive and professional freediving and i dont plan on using drugs to get there because at the end of the day once i have achieved what i was aiming for i can say that i did it with just my body and brain power.

 

[jome]

You should add that the red pill may seriously compromise your health in the future.

I still like to keep my rose colored glasses on and believe there is no doping problem in freediving.

However, the cynic in me knows that if not yet, there will be - just a matter of the sport gaining enough momentum to actually matter. And maybe already? Who knows, but I sure as hell will not cast random accusations on insinuate. That's just worthless...

Good thing you opened a new thread as discussing these things under some athletes "personal" threads casts the wrong message, however delicate you try to write.

I don't fit the profile, so I decline to answer Let's just say to me my own well being and health is always more important than something silly like a title, record or prize. In such a small sport the greatest satisfaction I get from the internal knowledge that I got everything right. If I did something "wrong", it just wouldn't feel the same. I never did have much ambition...

 

[Yogaman]

Okay, so people must do what they gotta do. But if I was ever at a competition, and there was a diver there who performed better than me just because he popped a red pill, I'd be f**ked off for sure.

But I don't think we'll ever resolve this issue - ever - because it's such a grey area.

What's your conclusion Seb?

 

[cebaztian]

No I have no conclusions (yet) I need to read other peoples intelligent posts on this matter in order to draw conclusions.
For the time being I just want to say:
It is very tempting and actually not that hard to get away with.

And its probably in the sport already.

Sebastian

 

[Ol Dirty Diver]

I posed the question about doping in the world championship thread because the Tour de France just started. Anyone who follows professional cycling knows how incredibly widespread the issue has become. Nearly all of our most respected cycling stars (Basso, Ullrich, Landis...) have come under suspicion, and many of them have already admitted it. Several of the Tour's previous winners have also just admitted to years of doping (e.g., Bjarne Riis), and admit that they should be stripped of their yellow jerseys. If doping has been this widespread in professional cycling all along, what other major European sports has it trickled down to? I mention European because neither cycling nor freediving are very large sports in the U.S. (yet), so I don't expect that significant doping development has been occurring in these sports on the American front (yet it certainly has here in America's more popular sports, e.g, football and baseball).

It is unfortunate, but now we have to question anyone who is dominating in their respective sport. I haven't followed the world championships closely, but there are definitely a few stars who appear to be dominating convincingly, and I wonder... In my post in the world championships thread, I asked if there was any drug testing being conducted. I was told by cebaztian to check the AIDA website for information, but I could find none. So could anybody inform me if they actually are doing any testing at these championships, and how thorough it is? (only testing the winner? or all individuals in a final?)

Although I may sound concerned about the doping issue, I actually don't look at the issue of doping in as harsh a manner as nearly everyone does. In some sports it has become so competitive and doping has become so widespread that the athletes probably feel they must dope if they are to hope to be competitive and have a chance of winning. These athletes are not driven by the desire to cheat, but the desire to win, rather. In a way, they are almost admirable for going to whatever length it takes to push performances to the max. It is arbitrary where we draw the line between doping and acceptable supplementation; it is arguable whether supplementing with EPO or accepting additional blood is natural or unnatural. What about caffeine, which I don't think has been banned? I've heard from a friend who is a professional triathlete that before professional ITU (triathlon) races, all the athletes are popping caffeine pills...Which is obviously doping, but still allowed. In spite of my identifying with the pressures on athletes to dope, I certainly don't believe that their performance can be considered for records or in competitions. The only way such individuals could be allowed to compete is if a separate category was developed for dopers.

The recent shocking events in the cycling arena are what made me inquire about doping in freediving. Some professional athletes and trainers I know assure me that anyone at the top of their sport is probably doping in some form. I'd just like to satisfy my curiosity by learning how possible it is for doping to be occurring in freediving.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Some questions Kurt - What type of effect and how significant an effect must a substance have before it is deemed 'performance enhancing'?, and if there are no reliable testing methods for certain banned substances then how can we determine whether or not the athlete in question has cheated?
Must we give them them benefit of the doubt or monitor them 24/7. Maybe a permanent minder to follow them and watch their every move.
I am not trying to be stupid here I am just saying that there are no easy answers yet to your questions. Be assured scientist around the world are working on this problem.
If I make a record (one day I hope) I will be satisfied knowing I got there by my own will, intelligence, and perserverance, and not by sinister means.

 

[Mullins]

A freediver could get an enormous performance boost by doping, imagine taking EPO + beta blockers + perhaps some sort of anaesthetic that allowed you to relax completely despite high CO2 levels. Plus I'm sure there are other things out there that would help.

Despite the fact that you'd be personally satisfied with your performance Adam, wouldn't you be pretty pissed if
a) somebody took your record by doping, or
b) everybody believed you cheated, because there were insufficient doping controls in place to assure them you were clean?

I'm in support of strict doping controls, otherwise the top freedivers will start facing those problems (though they probably will in any case). At some stage national AIDA organisations will need to introduce drug tests, but they are so expensive and records are still being set at such a rate due to the sport's growth that it is probably not reasonable for the time being.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Firstly Dave I would only be satisfied with my performance if a) I knew I was clean. B) I knew that all practicable methods were in place to ensure nobody else was cheating.

The problem lies in the fact that the athletes are in front of the scientists in terms of detecting performance enhancing substances. And where do we draw the line on whether a substance should be banned? or at what threshold does the concentration of a substance (e.g. caffeine) become too much? I just want to compete on an even playing field.

 

[Mullins]

An absolute line between doping and 'clever nutrition' will always be hard to draw but it can be discussed and a pretty sensible list agreed upon. There may be plenty of debate around substances that are of marginal benefit and whether these should be tested for, but at least those that provide athletes with clear advantages and/or pose health risks will quite reliably be put in the 'doping' bucket. EPO, steroids and HGH come to mind, I'm sure there are heaps more.

I haven't done any investigation but I'm sure WADA would have published some guidelines regarding what criteria should be used (or have been used by them, if they have made the call on behalf of the sporting codes) in determining a substance's status.

 

[shoutatthesky]

yes Dave, I agree whatever the rules an independent body must oversee the implementation of these rules. There is a whole lot of issues to work through before we come to an independant ruling on the status of any substance.

BTW - I take beta blockers as treatment for Glaucoma. Does this enhance my performance abilities? Should I be given dispensation?

 

[cebaztian]

In all WC under AIDA the winners are tested and some random athletes, not many. These tests follow as far as I know IOC rules. They cost about 500 US (probably more). They do not detect EPO. EPO test would cost nearly 10 times as much I guess.

To keep doping out of freediving we would have to be able to test athletes year around. There are doping that enhances training and is gone at competitions.

Taking a certain drug to get more out of your training might also feel like "not cheating so much" - at the end of the day its your body (without doping in it) that does the record at competition (one could argue with oneself).

Its easy to suspect doping when athletes perform in a way thats unexplicable. No matter how I would train there are certain results I would never attain - I believe. But the explanation does not have to be doping, it could be genes or training/preparation/diet I have never heard of.

Sebastian

 

[Billextreme]

At WC Maribor - Gold and Silver in every discipline where tested, and we had one random test. All tests incl EPO-test as well.

The thing with EPO is that if the athlete know how to take it, there could be a problem to detect it even with incl EPO test. But we are coming closer fix this little problem.

:hmm

/B

 

[laminar]

I would assume that most athletes who would take EPO would learn how to take it and not get detected? Unless there is a new EPO test?

I was under the impression that the only way to find a positive test for EPO is to either a) have a careless athlete or b) drop in unexpectedly at random times throughout the year ($$$$) on the athlete. This is done in higher profile Olympic sports. Of course, way beyond AIDA's budget.

Bill, can you explain how the EPO test applied at the WC works?

 

[shoutatthesky]

The thing with EPO is that if the athlete know how to take it, there could be a problem to detect it even with incl EPO test. But we are coming closer fix this little problem.

Little problem? I'd say this is one of the biggest problems facing worldwide sports at the moment!

 

[Jorg]

Bill, can you explain how the EPO test applied at the WC works?

Not... We only do a normal doping test that will detect all the doping you can found in urine. So no blood testing or anything. And we're not even talking about gen-doping now!

 

[trux]

EPO testing in urine is actually much more precise than from blood samples. EPO testing is doing routinely by anti-doping laboratories, so I guess it is the same case here too. It is true though that EPO can be detected only within few days after the application. There are more advanced and cheaper EPO detection methods in development and testing, so hopefully it will change soon, and artificial EPO will be detectable even after a longer time. On the other hand those who want to dope will find some other ways anyway.

As for gen doping - I doubt any freediver would have access to such technology. I also do not know how easy it is to get hold of EPO, and whether any freedivers could ever get hold of it, or afford buying it. But maybe it is not that expensive after all, I really do not know.

On the other hand, several European countries introduced lately anti-doping laws, so keeping or dealing such substances is a crime and any sportsman, or a coach can spent time in prison if caught. Positive doping test is mostly not sufficient though - in many cases it might be hard to prove the competitor took the substance consciously, but if caught with the "red pills" in a pocket, he'll be in serious troubles. I know of at least France and Italy already having such laws, and police doing surprise searches at competitors, coaches and sport physicians. Czech Republic is just about introducing anti-doping laws too and should be even stricter than in France or Italy.

It will certainly not scare away all, and may be even abused (you can secretly put a few pills in a fellow competitor's pocket), but maybe it will have some effect - at least the drugs may get more expensive and less affordable for common sportsmen, although even that is not quite sure.

 

[PoseidonSv]

I know some things about blood, the Blood i have gets higher consentration of red bloodcells if i donate blood regulary. i dont know if this is doping or not.
In fact you change the bodys function to have production of red bloodcells in the bone narrow up and running at higher production rate than normally if not donating any blood. Also ther is machines that makes it possible to separate red bloodcells and put them back into the body lets say from a doner to a reciever to increase the number of red bloodcells. I can not see any way that this is detectable other than to take a test check the content but how can you prove what is unnatural and what is not?

 

[naiad]

Also ther is machines that makes it possible to separate red bloodcells and put them back into the body lets say from a doner to a reciever to increase the number of red bloodcells.

This is sometimes done by athletes and is known as blood doping. Blood is removed from the athlete and then put back later, so his/her red cell count is increased. It is very difficult to detect, because no drugs are involved.