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Who is doped?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Let's talk first why banning doping at all: I see two main reasons:

1) It is immoral and unfair
2) It poses serious health risks

Ad 1) Some may tell: Why immoral/unfair? Because competitors usually train intensively many years since childhood, invest incredible amount of time, effort, energy, and often also finances into their passion, just to be overtaken by someone who used doping to get to the top.

Well, you can tell: he/she can take doping too if he/she wants to get to the top. But letting aside the simple fact that not everyone is willing to dope (whether for moral or health reasons), or has the material possibility to do so (some types of doping require huge and very expensive medical or scientific backing), it is apparent that once we consider doping acceptable, it would quickly spiral out of proportions.

While today doping is undeniable part of many sport disciplines, thanks to improving anti-doping measures, its practical effect is quite seriously limited - I think only few of us can imagine the consequences if doping was allowed. It would not stop at using huge amounts of all possible chemical substances - it would go on to genetic manipulation, operations, implants, intentional malformations and mutations, etc. I can barely imagine that anyone reasonable would want to see it happening (though I do not doubt there are such people).

And even if you allow doping "just" for the top pro competitors (as some may want to propose), it would have extremely negative impact on the amateur mass sport too. Kids, and hobby sportsmen would easily either lose motivation, seeing their performance are nowhere comparable even to fraction of the performance of the pro chemical monsters; or they would much easily start doping too just to get closer to their idols, or to have a chance becoming professionals.

Well, I think it is not necessary to rehash this topic more - I assume that most of DB users would probably agree about the immorality/unfairness of doping.

Ad 2) Most of doping methods (when not all) pose serious health risk. By allowing or tolerating doping we would actually push practically every ambitious sportsman to doping. We would actually condemn them to an almost sure premature death, because only those who would risk taking more and stronger doping would have a chance to success.

Now back to blood doping. I have studied the topic little bit in the past days, so you may profit from the research I did and the links I sorted out. There are indeed some quite interesting ones:
World Anti-Doping Agency
Welcome to Science and Industry Against Blood doping website
ALTDIRT adventure sports intelligence » Blog Archive » Blood doping
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

Principally, there are three groups of blood doping:
1) Blood transfusions (autologous and homologous)
2) Red blood cell production stimulants (i.e. EPO)
3) Synthetic oxygen carriers (HBOC, PFC, ...)

Basically all of these methods improve the oxygen stocking and transporting capacity, and also increase the buffering of acid lactic (the byproduct of anaerobic metabolism in muscles).

Blood transfusions are likely being abused in the sport since 60's, but due to their disadvantages (risks of infections at homologous transfusions, complicate handling and negative impact on training capacity at autologous transfusions), the chemical blood doping methods prevailed in 80's - 90's. Lately, the old-fashioned transfusions are becoming more popular again, because of stricter, more frequent, and improving anti-doping testing methods.

However, purely technically, all of the doping methods are detectable:
1a) Homologous transfusions (competitor receives blood of the same group from another person) are quite well detectable, and appropriate testing methods were already developed.

1b) Autologous transfusions (blood is removed from the body, stocked for several weeks, and then re-infused) are a harder nut, because the cells have identical genetic signature, but methods are being developed that focus on cell transformation that necessarily happens during the stocking (the blood must be cooled/frozen).

2) EPO (currently best known red blood production stimulant) is already being tested for, but the test method is not efficient enough, unless surprise tests are done during the training too - the tests can only detect EPO used in the last hours. There are new much more efficient EPO test methods in works - they need scientific validation (to exclude false positives) and fine-tuning the technology to allow inexpensive testing.

3) Synthetic oxygen carriers are also detectable, but the efficiency of the available tests differs.

So purely technically all of the above mentioned doping methods are detectable, but the available testing methods are not yet always sufficiently efficient, available, or affordable. However, WADA and (World Anti-Doping Agency) and SIAB (Science and Industry Against Blood doping) work on improving the methods and making them cheaper. In the linked documents they also discuss other strategies to keep blood doping under the control (i.e. the Haematologic Passport - analyzing and monitoring the blood of competitors over long periods also during training)

Cheaters will certainly always find a way to get an advantage despite improving tests and stricter controls, but hopefully thanks to the effort of the anti-doping agencies, the impact and extent remain under control. Also, thanks to new legislation measures in many countries, doping abusers or dealers may get prosecuted and spent up to several years in prison - hopefully it will deter some of those who are on the edge, and hesitate about doping. And since anti-doping laboratories stock samples for several years, it is quite probable that those who cheat today relying on the current holes in laboratory tests, will be detected and punished later.

I do not know if blood doping is already present in our sport, but until someone is proven to be doping, I firmly trust that all of freediving record holders are clean. It is absolutely baseless telling about someone that he is doping just because he did a new record ("he/she is better than me = he/she must be doping"). Also, in my mind, spreading hoaxes that freediving competitions are certainly full of doping is quite damaging the sport, and rather then pointing out an existing problem, it can trigger it, and bring some of confused individuals to experiment with it.

In any way, I think that apart from homologous transfusion, the other methods of doping are currently not too probable in freediving. Homologous transfusions are quite risky (infections), especially if done in amateur conditions. Autologous transfusions are practically excluded without having access to quite expensive technology. I am not quite sure about the accessibility of EPO and the synthetic oxygen carriers, but from what I understood, I assume that they are highly controlled substances, and hence may be difficult or expensive for a competitor in such a forgotten sport as freediving is. I admit I may be wrong, though, here.

Generally, the common health risk of all mentioned blood doping methods (aside from the mentioned danger of infections, immune reactions, and the de-equilibrating of the organism) is the fact that extremely high red blood cell content thickens the blood, and leads so to an increased risk of several deadly diseases, such as heart disease, stroke, and cerebral or pulmonary embolism. This actually brings back up the question I already asked myself earlier - whether intensive long-term freediving training does not damage the organism too much (in similar way as doping does). Not only higher Hb content is to be expected at intensively training freedivers, but additionally the cerebral and cardiac blood pressure extremely and quickly fluctuates during freediving, increasing so the risk of a cerebral or cardiac stroke. I'd love to see some scientific research done on this topic, but so far did not manage to find any interesting documents. If any of the physiologists subscribed on DB looks for topics to study, I believe this one is very interesting and rather crucial.
 
Thanks for summing this up for us Trux.
I think Eric Fattah has posted before that hematocrit levels raised by natural adaptations are healthier than blood doping cause of different RBC size and maybe other stuff regarding coagulation, I don't recall exactly.
I think Frank Pernnet might have also mentioned something about thick blood regarding high-altitude inhabitants. If I remember correrctly I think he is said the risk of a stroke is actually higher in these populations. Maybe you can find their older posts if they won't join this topic.
 
This topic is quite complicated.

First of all, freediving requires drastically different physiology from other sports. As a result, there are several classes of substances which have a dramatically beneficial effect for freediving, which are not even considered by WADA or other anti-doping agencies, NOR WILL THEY EVER BE. I hesitate to even mention the types of substances I am talking about, for fear of giving people ideas to try them.

However, I will mention that for freediving, in SOME cases, taking the 'doping' substance does not cause a health risk, but causes the opposite --> a health benefit.

One example is having a samba/BO. There is substantial evidence that having a samba or hypoxic seizure causes semi-permanent changes in brain chemistry, which increase susceptibility to further seizures (shown in babies, and also in animals).

There are also known substances (both drugs and natural herbs), which will prevent hypoxic seizures, such that a person using the substance either remains conscious or blacks out, with no seizure. These substances can dramatically reduce or even eliminate negative brain damage caused by a samba or blackout. They also delay the onset of the blackout significantly. So, they improve the performance, and improve the health and safety of the diver as well. So, is their use ethically sound? Not an easy question.

Several divers have died in no-limits. During no-limits, narcosis is severe and can cause a great health hazard, since the diver may not be able to think clearly enough to save himself. Several anti-narcosis drugs/herbs exist. Some of these have no known negative side effects, and could greatly improve the safety of the diver during extreme deep dives in constant weight or variable weight. Is their use ethical?

Other beneficial substances are food based. Anyone can cause an instantaneous 15-20% increase in diving capacity by making themselves 100g of aqueous garlic extract (all you need is water, and lots of garlic, and some patience). Studies show that a single 100g dose creates a 20% increase in survival time in hypoxia, an effect which I confirmed by trying the experiment myself. When I tried this experiment, I created personal bests which I have never been able to beat, no matter how hard I train. Ethical or not?
 
Reactions: DeepThought
If one can improve performance with natural products, be it lemon juice, garlic and so forth, it should be no problem, though, even here it's hard to draw the line, coca or hemp leaves are also natural and if "cooked" well, could give one quite a boost!

Garlic
= ethical
1l of Andinean highlander blood transfusion prior to competition...hm, no that ethical any longer.
 
Good point Sergiu, There is a very fine line. The important thing is that the line is drawn by an independent body like WADA.
I don't think garlic is on the prohibited substances list but I am pretty sure coca and cannabis are.
 
As an ignorant 'lurker' on this thread, does anyone carry out 'doping' tests on freedivers pre or post competitions as for example on cyclists during Tour de France?
 
The mechanism of garlic is to activate the adenosine cycle. The adenosine system is central in activation of hypoxic defense systems. Basically, when 'doped' with huge amounts of aqueous garlic extract, your body will respond to hypoxia and initiate the dive reflex & defense mechanism FAR sooner and stronger than otherwise.

Keep in mind that we're talking about huge amounts of garlic. It takes over 1kg of garlic cloves to make 100g of aqueous garlic extract. If you ate 1kg of garlic cloves it could be extremely harmful. The aqueous extract is harmless though.

To make an aqueous extract, you basically crush the cloves, soak them in water for a day, then drain out the precious water. The water is then evaporated, and the remaining powder is the extract.
 

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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine]Adenosine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Would garlic have the same effect as the adenosine that this article refers to? If so just watch out if your on beta blockers because they are contraindicated! Counts me out!
 
Good point Sergiu, There is a very fine line. The important thing is that the line is drawn by an independent body like WADA. I don't think garlic is on the prohibited substances list but I am pretty sure coca and cannabis are.
As Eric pointed out, there is a big difference between doping in freediving and other sports, so I completely agree with him, that AIDA should rather start own research than relying on WADA. However, such research is certainly not in AIDA's budget. Unlike at blood doping, at many other substances the desired effects for freediving are opposite than those at other sports. For freediving, rather the sedative effects are interesting, while at other sports stimulants are needed, which would be counterproductive for a freediver.

So actually all these WADA doping controls (in its current form) are pretty useless for freediving and are just good for filling pockets of laboratories owners (and emptying those of freedivers). I bet that 90% of the expensive laboratory tests are made for substances that would help no freediver, and oppositely substances that should be banned are not being tested at all.

As for using garlic and other "natural" substances - that is is quite a controversary topic. Personally I think that even using such natural substances should not be allowed without any control or limits. And I also do not quite agree that using natural nutrition, herbs, or drugs is always beneficial for the health. Everything has its limits, so once you start abusing it, it will flip the natural balance in your body and start damaging it.

Imagine: if a freediver gets better results after consuming 100g of garlic extract, the next one will try it with a pound. Not only gas masks for the audience, organizers, safety divers, and judges would have to be mandatory, but the effect may indeed at some point start damaging the health of the freediver. And the next freediver will get super concentrated extract from one ton of garlic. In the next stage scientist will genetically manipulate garlic to have 100 times stronger effect. Etc, etc. So now, where exactly is the limit of natural nutrition and doping? I am afraid we cannot tell it without making serious scientific research seeing how the effects and the risks are related to concentrations of those substances and start setting allowed limits (better lower than higher).
 
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Eric exactly how sick were you after consuming 100gm's of garlic extract?
 
How did you learn about the affects of using garlic for freediving? Do you have any references on it? It would be interesting to understand why it causes the benefits it does for freedivers.
 
Garlic was used by polynesian freedivers as well as Jacques Mayol, as described in Homo Delphinus. My serious experiment in garlic was based on the following study which I purchased online. Here is just the abstract:

The Protective Effect of
Allium sativum
L.
Clove Aqueous and Methanolic Extracts
Against Hypoxia-induced Lethality in Mice

Hossein Hosseinzadeh* and Nargess Sadati

Pharmaceutical Research Center, Pharmacodynamy and Toxicology Department, School of Pharmacy, Mashhad University of
Medical Sciences, PO Box 91775-1365, Mashhad, I.R. Iran.

The antihypoxic activity of Allium sativum
clove (garlic) aqueous and methanolic extracts was studied in mice.
The extracts of garlic showed that the antihypoxic effect was dose-dependent. The minimum effective doses
of aqueous and methanolic extracts were 0.2 g/kg and 5.12 g/kg, respectively. Phenytoin, 50 mg/kg, and Rphenylisopropyladenosine
(R-PIA), 1.6 mg/kg (R-PIA) as positive controls increased survival time up to 52.5 ±2.9 min and 120.5 ± 6 min, respectively, compared to normal saline (34.73 ±0.71 min). The high doses of aqueous (16.9 g/kg) and methanolic (12.8 g/kg) extracts increased survival time up to 73.17 ± 4.9 and 68.41 ± 3.7, respectively. These results indicated that the extracts of A. sativum cloves have a protective effect against hypoxiainduced lethality in mice. Copyright © 2003 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
 
Seizures Accelerate Anoxia-Induced Neuronal
Death in the Neonatal Rat Hippocampus

Volodymyr Dzhala, PhD, Yehezkiel Ben-Ari, PhD, and Roustem Khazipov, MD, PhD

Seizures occurring in infants with hypoxia are frequently associated with an ominous prognosis. There is, however, no
direct evidence that seizures are involved in the pathogenesis of hypoxia-induced neuronal damage. Here, we report that
seizures significantly aggravate the hypoxic state by accelerating rapid anoxic depolarization (AD) and associated neuronal
death in preparations of the intact hippocampus of neonatal rats in vitro. Under control conditions, prolonged
episodes of anoxia/aglycemia induced rapid suppression of synaptic activity followed sequentially by brief bursts of
epileptiform activity and then by rapid AD. AD was associated with irreversible neuronal damage manifested by irreversible
loss of the membrane potential, synaptic responses, and neuronal degeneration. Aggravation of electrographic
seizure activity during anoxic episodes by the adenosine A1 receptor antagonists DPCPX and caffeine or the
g-aminobutyric acid-A receptor antagonist bicuculline or pretreatment with 4-aminopyridine accelerated AD and associated
neuronal death by up to twofold, whereas blockade of seizure activity by the glutamate receptor antagonists or
tetrodotoxin significantly delayed the onset of AD. This report provides direct evidence for the need to prevent seizures
during neonatal brain hypoxia.
Dzhala V, Ben-Ari Y, Khazipov R. Seizures accelerate anoxia-induced neuronal death in the
neonatal rat hippocampus.

Ann Neurol 2000;48:632–640


--------------


Influence of combined treatment with NMDA and non-NMDA receptor
antagonists on electroconvulsions in mice

Stanistaw J. Czuczwar *, Kinga K. Borowicz, Zdzistaw Kleinrok, Piotr Tutka,
Tomasz Zarnowski, Waldemar A. Turski

Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Medical University School, Jaczewskiego 8, 20-090 Lublin, Poland

Received 28 December 1994; revised 25 April 1995; accepted 28 April 1995
Abstract

a-Amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-isoxazole-4-propionate/kainate (AMPA/kainate) receptor antagonists (at subthreshold doses
against electroconvulsions), 1-(4-aminophenyl)-4-methyl-7,8-methylenedioxy-5H-2,3-benzodiazepine (GYKI 52466 at maximally 5
mg/kg) and 2,3-dihydroxy-6-nitro-7-sulfamoylbenzo(F)quinoxaline (NBQX at maximally 20 mg/kg) enhanced the protective
effects of NMDA receptor antagonists, MK-801 (dizocilpine) or 2-(2-carboxypiperazine-4-yl)-l-propenyl-l-phosphonic acid
(o-CPP-ene), against electroconvulsions. Similarly, MK-801 or D-CPP-ene reduced the EDs0 values of both NBQX and GYKI
52466 against maximal electroshock. The adverse effects of D-CPP-ene, evaluated in the chimney and rotorod tests, were
potentiated by both GYKI 52466 (2.5 mg/kg) and NBQX (10 mg/kg). Also, n-CPP-ene (0.1 mg/kg) worsened the motor
performance of mice pretreated with GYKI 52466 in the rotorod test. Neither MK-801 (0.025 mg/kg) nor D-CPP-ene (0.1
mg/kg) affected the NBQX-induced impairment of motor coordination. Similarly, GYKI 52466 (2.5 mg/kg) or NBQX (10
mg/kg) did not influence the performance of mice treated with MK-801 (0.2 mg/kg). It may be concluded that the blockade of
more than one subtype of glutamate receptors leads to a more pronounced anticonvulsive effect when compared with the effect
of blockade of an individual receptor subtype. In some cases more efficient seizure protection was not associated with increased
adverse effects.
Keywords: AMPA receptor antagonist; NMDA receptor
 
If you read the two above studies (in full), you will find that they show that:
- Hypoxic seizures cause some brain damage, and the damage is caused by the seizure, not the early blackout
- Some drugs can prevent the seizure part of the blackout, and also delay the blackout and protect the brain dramatically
- and there are also easy to obtain herbs which operate in the same mechanisms


If such a herb were administered during a competition, there would be no sambas, only blackouts. Therefore, disqualification would be extremely obvious.
 
that AIDA should rather start own research than relying on WADA. However, such research is certainly not in AIDA's budget.
Yes and no.
One could start with actually excluding anything that is NOT beneficial for freediving. We would come down to some 10-20-30 (?) substances on the IOC/WADA list that would be forbidden for freedivers. I imagine this work would be pretty easy and there are lots of medics/scientist out there who no doubt could do this for free for us. Its just a question of asking (the right way.
Problem is - the tests will probably cost the same. Wada has its routines and they check for everything on their lists.

Sebastian

apnea and doping
 
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this is sort of my oversimplified interpretation of what we should consider natural, but it also still begs the question "how do you enforce it?". Looking at the underlying philosophy of freediving, it seems that the goal is to get back to our primal dive capacity. The capacity we are born with, and capable of attaining on our own, as if we lived without any form of technology to develop pills or supplements. Anything we cant produce from scratch, or pick out of the ground could be considered unnatural, right? i suppose this is a bit of clouded issue anyway, because we use fins, wetsuits, masks and the like. just my $.02.
 
Reactions: shoutatthesky
Thanks for the thread Sebastian. As soon as I can add something, I will. Every time I think I understand drugs and doping I get another surprise. Who'd have believed that Vinokourov would pull a stunt like that? For what?
 
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Very interesting thread and lots of good points raised.

I think that we only have to look as far as professional bodybuilding to see where a free-and-easy approach to performance enhancing drugs can take any sport. None of those guys seriously deny taking steroids, and as a result there are basically two sports - one with 'natural' body builders, and one with the guys who do as they please.

But as pointed out many times, it can be hard to know where to draw the line.
 
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