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why does my diving distance increase during parctice?

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noyaraz

New Member
Feb 26, 2013
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hi
i do dynamic dive with fins at swimming pool.
i will start with a single 25m than swim back resting.
after 4-8 repeats i can do 37m , 1.5 pool.
getting number 14 i will do 50m without breathing stress.
as each time before diving i take ~20 to 30 deep breaths before dive i am not sure why my ability to dive improve during practice.
does anyone know this?
many thanks
Shaul
 
the MDR and the warming-up are the cause...
but i guess that is something psychological to...
 
Reduction in dive response. Higher heart rate, better peripheral bloodflow, presumably some pH buffering.

Essentially the dive response feels horrible and as it lessens, you become a lot more comfortable. But of course as you 'warm up' your max distance will reduce; can't really have comfort and performance at the same time, unfortunately.
 
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I'm actually not sure why exactly i becomes easier, but it's a wellknown and common effect. I would have said, that the body/mind is stimulated to enter a more diving orientated mode.

However what Mullins is proposing is quite interesting also... first time I've heard it described like that though... Simple and makes sense in its own way...

noyaraz said:
each time before diving i take ~20 to 30 deep breaths before dive
Shaul
Click to expand...

Don't HYPERVENTILATE. It is a very dangerous practice that kills lots of people every year. Read here: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout"]Shallow water blackout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Also, make sure you have a buddy with you, watching you every second, if you do long dives. You and your buddy needs to read about freediving and blackouts and rescue first... Lifeguards are not enough.

Best thing to do: Do a course with a freediving school.
 
if you are very carrefoul with those 20~30 breaths, you will not hyperventilate...remember not to exhale as fast as you inhaled...and don't be in a hurry...
and definitly...do a freediving course
 
hi Guys
regarding Reduction in dive response
the answers relating to diving mammal reflex does not look right because:
1. If it was true the reflex it should work from the very start and not appears gradually during practice.
2. This reflex assume to act when water temperature is below 20 degrees while I swim in 28 degrees or even more
I believe that somehow the balance CO2 and oxygen and the need of oxygen is change during practicing but I did not find any proof or literature.

in anyway one of the first things I learned was that peacefulness and concentration helps very much.
thanks everyone for their answers
regards
Shaul
 
i don't think that what you said above is entirelly true....
when do you think that human body percept more the cold? at 20 degres C in air or in 20 degres C in water? i tell you that 20 degrees C in water are colder for the human body than 20 degrees C in air!
so any water temperature bellow 36-37 celsius will be perceptible by human body as colder!
more then that...in time, if the body stay in the water for hours, the 28 degres C water will became a cold water and you will start to shiver...
so...in fact in a small percentage, the DMA is present if your body [and especialy your face] is in the water...
but as i told you, this is not the only factor....the preps and your mind did also the trick!!!
because I am in the same situation as you are...
first poll - 25m
last poll - 65m
and many 50 in between
there might be something else but i-m not so shure...in my first pools i do not care so much for the gliding techniques...but somehow...at the last few pools, I get more focused on gliding techinque...
 
noyaraz said:

regarding Reduction in dive response
the answers relating to diving mammal reflex does not look right because:
1.If it was true the reflex it should work from the very start and not appears gradually during practice.
Click to expand...

Oh, but it most certainly does work from the start.You are talking about dives getting easier/more comfortable... Mullins point is, if I may assume: The dive respons is NOT comfortable at all. The trend of a stronger O2 saving dive respons in pool diving is, to my knowledge, well established: People save more O2 without " warm-up" dives... But most beginners don't get near their limit, and will swim longer for each dive, beause of better comfort, later contractions and more relaxed swimming. The trend is the same when doing dry static in a bed at home...

noyaraz said:

2.This reflex assume to act when water temperature is below 20 degrees while I swim in 28 degrees or even more
Click to expand...

This is to my knowledge an old misinterpretation from an experiment. The respons is indeed induced faster/stronger in cold water. But it might be in warmer water also, expecially if the temperature difference between air/face and water is big. But as mentioned above even in your bed the "diveresponse" or perhaps "breathhold respons" is activated resulting in longer and longer holds for beginners... because it feels easier. But O2-wise, other mechanisms are at play (most people use their O2 quicker this way, look up "no warm-up" or similar in deeperblue old theads).

noyaraz said:

I believe that somehow the balance CO2 and oxygen and the need of oxygen is change during practicing but I did not find any proof or literature.
Click to expand...

I can not make any sense to the above, but you are of course welcome to believe whatever you want. A better starting point from my experience, is to search for old threads and learn from the knowledge allready gathered. However it is not easy and simple, sometimes it's extremely complicated, and there's not nescesarilly consensus about different topics, be warned
 
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Reactions: vali
Thanks Baiyoke and Vali
i learned alot.
i got two questions.
1. from my experiance i have only one step of improving distance. can i experiance another one after much longer practice?
2. per Baiyoke , trained divers do not need this earm up dives. is there any warmup you before diving training?

many thanks
Shaul
 
if i understand the question correctly:
1. exercising will give you many good steps in any direction [static, dynamic or depth] ... but don-t forget to do those exercises in safe conditions
and don't elude the fact that having another free-divers arround you can be motivated...
 
Re: pool temp.
On experiments I have done on myself, I found that you can absolutely experience a strong DR in a pool at 78-80 degrees F. But on facial immersion tests, my results were more or less in line with published literature--no response in facial immersion with water at 78F.

From that I had always assumed that nothing much happened for me in a pool until becoming truly hypoxic. However, when I actually did some tests while swimming very relaxed 50m DYN (low profile Swedish goggles, speedo) with a pulse O2 meter I discovered that I was actually getting a significant DR within 30 secs of starting the swim, while my O2 was still at 98%.

It stays fairly consistent for several reps but does start to fall off.

This wouldn't be true for everyone; DR is very individual.

Also I have done various tests on a bike, after a complete workout which has severely blunted my DR. For efforts that are not maximum but more than just easy, measured against the beginning of a cold session, remaining O2 at the end of the set is comparable, even though bradycardia/vasoconstriction is markedly reduced. I would assume this is spleenic contraction and the body basically going into anaerobic work mode.

To the OP: mullins is right. Your body is just getting used to high CO and low O2; DR is not a comfortable feeling. You may be gaining some benefit from spleenic contraction but it won't quite balance.
 
O2 appearing to be high at the end of a set might also be due to better bloodflow in the areas where you are taking the measurement. Would be good to measure O2 saturation in the brain, but you'd need some nasty looking equipment for that...
 
noyaraz said:
1. from my experiance i have only one step of improving distance. can i experiance another one after much longer practice?
Shaul
Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure i understand. If you mean what methods you can choose to improve, then I'd suggest you go to the "beginners forum" and read some older threads there... Make sure you choose the display option at the bottom to "from beginning" and then have a look... Also make sure you look at the STICKY thread http://forums.deeperblue.com/beginner-freediving/64959-how-start-freediving.html (just saw that it's a bit old, so mind that not everything is up-to-date...).

By the way: People train in many, many different ways... When we talk about a "no warm-up" dive here, we are talking about a competition dive, or a personal best attempt... Just to make it clear. Some people do "no warm-up" in training, but many people start slowly, and do longer and longer dives... To me, it's a fairly advanced thing to train with no warm-up... Allthough it's probably something you can get used to, but it's harder, and for many it's too rough...

Another thing: "Warm-up" does not mean to actually WARM-up... It's more like "slowly getting used to diving longer and longer"... Or many people would say it's "getting the body into dive(response) mode"... Mullins and others are saying something like "getting used to, and weakening, dive response"... Anyway it's something that makes diving easier mentally and physically in the beginning of the dive you could say...

noyaraz said:
2. per Baiyoke , trained divers do not need this earm up dives. is there any warmup you before diving training?
Click to expand...

The "warm-up" is just slowly progressing, so anything that starts of slow and gets longer and longer would be a kind of freediving warm-up. But the term makes more sense before a competition, or before a really long dive...

To actually WARM-up, I think many people swim. Some swim normally, some swim while holding breath fx 5 or 7 strokes... For me personally, I don't like to be active before diving, I like my body to be non-working and relaxed... But if my trainer tells me to swim... of course I pretend to swim a little.. ;-)

Something I'd recommend you:
- Train your technique in the pool (you can work on that for years, physically and mentally). Don't push yourself EVER if you are alone... I dive at around 20-25% of max if alone, never more than 50%. It's tempting, but don't. If you ever want to test yourself, have a buddy with you in the water, someone who knows about freediving safety).
- Train your CO2 tolerance at home doing CO2-tables... You can push yourself, but try to always focus on relaxation and good feelings...

Know that wwhen you get better, among other things, you are also getting closer to your blackout limit, so have that in mind...
 
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Interesting stuff Growingupninja...

growingupninja said:
To the OP: mullins is right. Your body is just getting used to high CO and low O2; DR is not a comfortable feeling. You may be gaining some benefit from spleenic contraction but it won't quite balance.
Click to expand...

About the spleen: I've thought about this many times. And the way I see it, after warm-up, you might have more blood running in the body, and so getting more oxygen. But since the blood in the spleen is probably also just as oxygenated before being released, there's no advantage in releasing it at warm-up, just the contrary: If it really is oxygenated, it's better to have it released after vaso-constriction... That might be part of the "no warm-up" advantage, together with earlier vasoconstriction... Or what are your thoughts on that?
 
Splenic contraction as I understand just makes the gas tank a little larger. So you can store more O2 on a given dive. Experimentally it has been shown to take a little time to kick in with humans although it can very likely be trained to some degree. I think the divers in the 'no warm-up camp' are not getting the benefit of spleenic contraction but the stregthened DR makes up for it. Personally where I am at I would probably save no warm up for statics since in DYN lactic acid has by far been my limiting factor. If a diver could have the benefit of instant spleenic contraction with strong DR he/she would basically be diving like a seal.
 
Dave what do you recommend for dynamic training? Just put on the suit and do a max at the beginning? Afterwards CO2-/O2-tables?
 
Thanks, for the advice, Dave. I am sort of a wuss at DYN and should probably just commit more. Slower speed doesn't really seem to change the lactic thing that much, although sprinting of course isn't the answer. I did a clean 121m with my stiff spearing fins, mixed dolphin and flutter kick, at a comp about a year ago and wasn't really very hypoxic, just dead legged. I did try my friend's big floppy soft mono afterwards and the difference was very noticeable; I have good form but in bi-fins glide isn't really possible. I am not going to spend time on another comp without a big mono... I had tried a small, stiff mono previously and not cared for it..
 
noyaraz have you seen this thread by the way: http://forums.deeperblue.com/static-dynamic/91903-science-behind-progressive-static-holds.html

(Also contains some really impressive facts about elephant seal by the way...)


That is not how I understand it. My impression is along the lines of Eric Fattah, quote from above mentioned thread:

 
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