Everyone knows that real freediving goes on in the depths of the ocean. And as it is now, the worlds for teams favour those nations which are good in pool disciplines. Is this in accordance with what you think is the true spirit of freediving? Why not create a team world championship in depth disciplines only (CW, CNF and FIM)? Each team could have one diver in each discipline or each team member would have to compete in all the disciplines. What say you?
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Why not make a Team World Championship in depth disciplines only?
- Thread starterAber
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There are several reasons why the team worlds has ended up the way they are now:
1. It is really, really, really difficult to organize depth events compared to pool events. Especially back when competitions started.
2. The first AIDA team worlds in '96 was constant and static. The interest was also then depths, but the margin of one meter = one full point left too small room for diversed rankings. So static was added because it, at the time, had a margin down to 0.5 points (today 0.2).
3. As dynamic was further developed and got further and further, and more dynamic competitions were organized, some competitors argued that it should be a part of the worlds. I'm sure one reason was that some of these agitators were themselves strong dynamic divers and that it improved their chances to win world medals, but another argument (which I thought was good) was that then the team worlds would be a fuller picture of the strongest contemporary nation across both depth, time and distance freediving.
I agree that the real freediving is in the sea and in the depths. But at the same time, it's so much simpler for the bulk of the world freedivers to train in the pool, and consequently organizing pool competitions. Or at least this is how it is for the time being. Freediving is still not a large-budget sports, and depth events are expensive s h..., and sometimes a logistic and safety nightmare.
The many pool events is what has helped to develop the community of competition freedivers, which I think is just as important. The downside or course, is that it makes the ocean events these rare spectacles.
The all-depth format for a team worlds sounds great, but I can't see the finance of it yet.
(Also, I don't think Free Immersion is that interesting a competition discipline. I'd much rather see CWT, CNF and VWT!)
1. It is really, really, really difficult to organize depth events compared to pool events. Especially back when competitions started.
2. The first AIDA team worlds in '96 was constant and static. The interest was also then depths, but the margin of one meter = one full point left too small room for diversed rankings. So static was added because it, at the time, had a margin down to 0.5 points (today 0.2).
3. As dynamic was further developed and got further and further, and more dynamic competitions were organized, some competitors argued that it should be a part of the worlds. I'm sure one reason was that some of these agitators were themselves strong dynamic divers and that it improved their chances to win world medals, but another argument (which I thought was good) was that then the team worlds would be a fuller picture of the strongest contemporary nation across both depth, time and distance freediving.
I agree that the real freediving is in the sea and in the depths. But at the same time, it's so much simpler for the bulk of the world freedivers to train in the pool, and consequently organizing pool competitions. Or at least this is how it is for the time being. Freediving is still not a large-budget sports, and depth events are expensive s h..., and sometimes a logistic and safety nightmare.
The many pool events is what has helped to develop the community of competition freedivers, which I think is just as important. The downside or course, is that it makes the ocean events these rare spectacles.
The all-depth format for a team worlds sounds great, but I can't see the finance of it yet.
(Also, I don't think Free Immersion is that interesting a competition discipline. I'd much rather see CWT, CNF and VWT!)
Christian summed up many valid points.
The strongest I find that by having a CWT, DYN and STA, you have the 3 defining core disciplines defining Freediving.
On the difficulty of organising proper safety for deepdiving, I agree it is a more challenging but not too difficult thanks to the use of the Counter Ballast system as many organisers have demonstrated.
Observing the lack of depth many freedivers have for training and for displaying to the general public a more balanced cross-section I feel that the CWT,DYN,STA does do the job best.
For those in the know, us Freedivers, depth is the most challenging.
It's the place where all the things come together like; a good swimming technique, equalising, relaxation (STA) in the glide phase, a strong mind, flexibility, strength, stamina, concentration on the swim up to surface. A very complete and challenging sport.
Consequently I think CWT and CNF are the most demanding and complete form of freediving.
Closely followed by FIM, because it's a bit artificial using a rope, a connection with the surface world.
Love, Courage and Water,
Kars
The strongest I find that by having a CWT, DYN and STA, you have the 3 defining core disciplines defining Freediving.
On the difficulty of organising proper safety for deepdiving, I agree it is a more challenging but not too difficult thanks to the use of the Counter Ballast system as many organisers have demonstrated.
Observing the lack of depth many freedivers have for training and for displaying to the general public a more balanced cross-section I feel that the CWT,DYN,STA does do the job best.
For those in the know, us Freedivers, depth is the most challenging.
It's the place where all the things come together like; a good swimming technique, equalising, relaxation (STA) in the glide phase, a strong mind, flexibility, strength, stamina, concentration on the swim up to surface. A very complete and challenging sport.
Consequently I think CWT and CNF are the most demanding and complete form of freediving.
Closely followed by FIM, because it's a bit artificial using a rope, a connection with the surface world.
Love, Courage and Water,
Kars
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Thanks for your answers, Chris and Kars!
There are indeed som valid arguments you have for the present arrangements for the Team Worlds, but
Chris:
I will still argue from the fact that there is a big difference between pool disciplines and depth. If you want to be good at deep diving, you need to dive deep and compete in the depth. So to develop the sport even further in the direction of depth disciplines, I think we need more focus on this. About the logistic at depth events they can pull it off in Triple Depth, Dahab. To do it a bit larger, they probably just need more people. And OnlyOne in Sharm can pull this off without problems. They have proven themselves as very solid and safe organizers. Its too bad AIDA did not give the next Championships to them. They are able to make money from it, probably attract the media (and give them good footage from the hole dives. And it is easy for most divers to get there. This would have given the freediving community the opportunity to plan years ahead and focus on preformances and have safe and professional events. This will no doubt make the community stronger and more nations will probably be able to pull off The Worlds in the future. But for now we really need some forseeableness in the competition circuit. OnlyOne can give us that.
If the logistics and safety is an issue, I would surely not recommend to include VW in a competition program.
Kars:
I see your point with having both pool and depth disciplines to promote the sport for a wider public. But I am not so sure it's doing what you want. The real attraction of freediving and the easiest thing to understand for outsiders is diving deep. It is also here the fascination lies for most of the divers as well. That is why I think AIDA should have Team Worlds also exclusively for depth. You can have a lot of lesser cross section events around to promote the sport, because more people have access to pools. But the Flagship of AIDA should be the deep diving.
There are indeed som valid arguments you have for the present arrangements for the Team Worlds, but
Chris:
I will still argue from the fact that there is a big difference between pool disciplines and depth. If you want to be good at deep diving, you need to dive deep and compete in the depth. So to develop the sport even further in the direction of depth disciplines, I think we need more focus on this. About the logistic at depth events they can pull it off in Triple Depth, Dahab. To do it a bit larger, they probably just need more people. And OnlyOne in Sharm can pull this off without problems. They have proven themselves as very solid and safe organizers. Its too bad AIDA did not give the next Championships to them. They are able to make money from it, probably attract the media (and give them good footage from the hole dives. And it is easy for most divers to get there. This would have given the freediving community the opportunity to plan years ahead and focus on preformances and have safe and professional events. This will no doubt make the community stronger and more nations will probably be able to pull off The Worlds in the future. But for now we really need some forseeableness in the competition circuit. OnlyOne can give us that.
If the logistics and safety is an issue, I would surely not recommend to include VW in a competition program.
Kars:
I see your point with having both pool and depth disciplines to promote the sport for a wider public. But I am not so sure it's doing what you want. The real attraction of freediving and the easiest thing to understand for outsiders is diving deep. It is also here the fascination lies for most of the divers as well. That is why I think AIDA should have Team Worlds also exclusively for depth. You can have a lot of lesser cross section events around to promote the sport, because more people have access to pools. But the Flagship of AIDA should be the deep diving.
if it is not broken , why repair it , we as a sport are trying to reach out to the rest of the sporting world and god willing one day we shall have an olympic event
if we go down the road of introducing new disciplines it will then take even many more years to be recognised .
i think the sporting world is missing out on the truebridges the mullins,s the fattahs the misfuds, coste,nitsch campbell ,streeter, molchonovas et al
im all for good ideas , i just think it may be a bit too much .
cmas and aida have differences as it is
regards
james
if we go down the road of introducing new disciplines it will then take even many more years to be recognised .
i think the sporting world is missing out on the truebridges the mullins,s the fattahs the misfuds, coste,nitsch campbell ,streeter, molchonovas et al
im all for good ideas , i just think it may be a bit too much .
cmas and aida have differences as it is
regards
james
Many will agree that "real freediving goes on in the depths of the ocean" at an emotional level, but in practice most freediving today goes on in pools. It might be sad, but it's the reality.
Just 10 years ago you could be in the world top ten in CWT by doing 50m, which is something relatively easy to train. But today, you need to do 85m to be at the same level, and that's an entirely different story for organization and safety. I think most athletes don't have this opportunity on a regular basis.
Besides, I think that you will see essentially the same ranking if you do CWT+CNF+FIM, or if you do CWT only. Also considering that in team champs you go for safe points not for maximum.
For maximum, there are the individual champs and those have alreade been separated on some occasions and apparently will be separated again in 2009.
Just 10 years ago you could be in the world top ten in CWT by doing 50m, which is something relatively easy to train. But today, you need to do 85m to be at the same level, and that's an entirely different story for organization and safety. I think most athletes don't have this opportunity on a regular basis.
Besides, I think that you will see essentially the same ranking if you do CWT+CNF+FIM, or if you do CWT only. Also considering that in team champs you go for safe points not for maximum.
For maximum, there are the individual champs and those have alreade been separated on some occasions and apparently will be separated again in 2009.
Unfortunately that requires credible bids from other nations
The list of places that could potentially hold such an event shrinks every year with more competitors and deeper depths required. In all seriousness, what are the options these days for a large depth (and pool preferably) competition outside of Egypt?
But what are your reasons for saying this? I think that would be more constrictive than just a statement without any arguments. Maybe you think it is obvious?
My main motive for this post is not to introduce something new, but I would wish AIDA to focus more on depth disciplines in Team Worlds. But no one seems to agree on this...
I´m with amber on this one. Although it would mean that my and my countrys chances at competing in the top would be challenged. From my perspective a triple-depth worlds would be great! I think it also would make it clearer for competitors and spectators as when now the mixing of three different disciplines allows for some confusion regarding points-accumulation and rules.
Now thinking about it I actually think that this would make logistics even easier for the organizers! Finding a worlds qualified pool within a decent vincinity of a 125 m deep blue hole is rather callenging and probably the reason why the worlds are arranged in egypt (although I heard the pool really didn´t live up to standards last time ).
How come no one organizes depth-comps e.g. in the bay of Villefranche Nice? I´d guess that there´s some political background to this, and that´s rather sad... :/
Edit: Or lake Garda in N . italy for that part (wiki: avg. depth 136 m / max depth 346 m)
Now thinking about it I actually think that this would make logistics even easier for the organizers! Finding a worlds qualified pool within a decent vincinity of a 125 m deep blue hole is rather callenging and probably the reason why the worlds are arranged in egypt (although I heard the pool really didn´t live up to standards last time
). How come no one organizes depth-comps e.g. in the bay of Villefranche Nice? I´d guess that there´s some political background to this, and that´s rather sad... :/
Edit: Or lake Garda in N . italy for that part (wiki: avg. depth 136 m / max depth 346 m)
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that I REALLY don't understand - what's wrong with Egypt?
I think we should retain a balance - for example two depth, two pool. CWT and CNF, DNF and STA would be a nice combination!
But we should also look at allowing countries to send different athletes for different disciplines - rather than requiring 3 athletes to do all 4 - reducing burnout and allowing athletes to really show off at what they are good at.
S
... why not separately organize pool and depth world teams?
but ok, I see why the current setup is as it is. It demands the team to perform i a spectrum of very different disciplines and requires a team of experts in all fields for the team to succeed. The final outcome would probably have been much different in the last comp if it would have been only a pool or depth comp.
However I still think it would be easier to organize either pool / depth comp instead of both at the same time. I´ve participated in organizing a national pool comp and already that was challenging at times. Maybe more willing locations would arise if a split was made?
...and what goes for egypt. I´ve only been there once, and I don´t know if was it due to the culture shock or me not just meeting the right people, but I really got the feeling I wasn´t wanted there (including the climate : ) ).
but ok, I see why the current setup is as it is. It demands the team to perform i a spectrum of very different disciplines and requires a team of experts in all fields for the team to succeed. The final outcome would probably have been much different in the last comp if it would have been only a pool or depth comp.
However I still think it would be easier to organize either pool / depth comp instead of both at the same time. I´ve participated in organizing a national pool comp and already that was challenging at times. Maybe more willing locations would arise if a split was made?
...and what goes for egypt. I´ve only been there once, and I don´t know if was it due to the culture shock or me not just meeting the right people, but I really got the feeling I wasn´t wanted there (including the climate : ) ).
Egypt: I agree with eric fattah - I have been a few times, and might go again if I really have to, but it is down the list in my choice of destinations. The times I have been there, I have lived secluded in a resort seeing nothing and no one except an artificial world made for foreigners, and the one time that I chose an independent stay by myself I was subject to continuous cheating and abuse. I am sure that with the proper knowledge and in less touristic places Egypt can be a wonderful country, but under those condistions it is not my idea of a vacation.
Alternatives: surely there are enough opportunities in the mediterranean? Maybe not 100+ plus drop off just a short swim away, but still there have been competitions and records made in Ibiza, Cyprus, Krete, Sicily, Sardinia, Nice, Croatia...
Alternatives: surely there are enough opportunities in the mediterranean? Maybe not 100+ plus drop off just a short swim away, but still there have been competitions and records made in Ibiza, Cyprus, Krete, Sicily, Sardinia, Nice, Croatia...
Egypt:
- Too hot, always fighting sunburn, dehydration, sunstroke, low blood pressure
- Red sea is too salty -- tastes gross, creates nausea, extreme pain in sinuses during sinus flood, hurts eyes when used in fluid goggles, creates excessive buoyancy requiring more weight, has lots of currents
- Dirty & filled with bacteria and poor food preparation -- everyone is always sick with diarrhea or fever -- not my idea of a good time
- Crappy & dirty accommodations unless you stay in one of the expensive tourist hotels
- Corrupt government with crazy laws (I for one having an Egyptian father could be forced to do military service the moment I enter the country, or else go to jail, even though I'm a Canadian citizen)
- Population which thrives on cheating & manipulating the tourists
Need more?
The best dive spot is Dean's Blue Hole in the Bahamas. Clean environment, not too hot, perfect water, not too salty, no current. Okay, there is no pool, so it's for depth only. In Vancouver we held worlds in 2004, high quality 50m olympic pool, and 250m deep water with 20C surface temp is only 40 minutes away by car, with no waves and little current. It's a bit cold and dark at the bottom but that's good for the dive reflex anyway. Otherwise the mediterranean is good. There are probably many places in South America that would be good too.
- Too hot, always fighting sunburn, dehydration, sunstroke, low blood pressure
- Red sea is too salty -- tastes gross, creates nausea, extreme pain in sinuses during sinus flood, hurts eyes when used in fluid goggles, creates excessive buoyancy requiring more weight, has lots of currents
- Dirty & filled with bacteria and poor food preparation -- everyone is always sick with diarrhea or fever -- not my idea of a good time
- Crappy & dirty accommodations unless you stay in one of the expensive tourist hotels
- Corrupt government with crazy laws (I for one having an Egyptian father could be forced to do military service the moment I enter the country, or else go to jail, even though I'm a Canadian citizen)
- Population which thrives on cheating & manipulating the tourists
Need more?
The best dive spot is Dean's Blue Hole in the Bahamas. Clean environment, not too hot, perfect water, not too salty, no current. Okay, there is no pool, so it's for depth only. In Vancouver we held worlds in 2004, high quality 50m olympic pool, and 250m deep water with 20C surface temp is only 40 minutes away by car, with no waves and little current. It's a bit cold and dark at the bottom but that's good for the dive reflex anyway. Otherwise the mediterranean is good. There are probably many places in South America that would be good too.
Taupo is pretty good. 184m deep, 20C surface temp, good pools nearby. Big lake though, so shelter is an issue. Pity we're so far away from everybody!
In Sharm we got pretty sick of having to spend ages bickering with the taxi drivers, they're on a constant mission to rip tourists off and some days you're really not in the mood for it. The food sucks. I actually quite like diving in the Red Sea but that's probably because I'm used to local conditions... Deans is definitely the best location I know of.
In Sharm we got pretty sick of having to spend ages bickering with the taxi drivers, they're on a constant mission to rip tourists off and some days you're really not in the mood for it. The food sucks. I actually quite like diving in the Red Sea but that's probably because I'm used to local conditions... Deans is definitely the best location I know of.
There are definitely some downsides to Egypt, but it is the only place I know of within reach for most freedivers with a permanent freediving center. After visiting Sharm one to two times a year since 2005 I have learned to deal with the Taxi drivers. There are so many of them, so it is really no problem to get a reasonable price. Many Hotels (Sharm Club included) have their own Taxi service with fixed reasonable prices. But food is the worst obstacle as I see it. Only once have I avoided stomach problems, and I understand that people don't want to take antibiotics every time they go there.
But competitive freediving really need a permanent spot with some good infrastructure, so it became a bit easier to make plans for training, competing and traveling. I agree that somewhere in the Mediterranean would be a better place than Egypt in most ways. The problem is that it is maybe a bit too cold in the winter for most divers. Nice could be a nice place for something more permanent, but I doubt it is possible to make it happen due to higher expenses than in Egypt.
But competitive freediving really need a permanent spot with some good infrastructure, so it became a bit easier to make plans for training, competing and traveling. I agree that somewhere in the Mediterranean would be a better place than Egypt in most ways. The problem is that it is maybe a bit too cold in the winter for most divers. Nice could be a nice place for something more permanent, but I doubt it is possible to make it happen due to higher expenses than in Egypt.
They charge you about 35 Egyptian pounds to take you from the Hotel to Nama Bay. That is about 7 km. They don't mind if you need to stop to shop on the way or the like. They are a bit more expensive than what you can get from haggling with the others, but exorbitant... Most of the guys are poor people from Kairo, who are months away from their families. So maybe putting things in perspective can be helpful sometimes, not being so pissed off by them. Many of them are not so friendly, but why should they? Most of what they make end up in someone else pocket (their bosses and the bosses boss, police etc). You can criticize a lot of things in Egypt (stupid government, corruption etc.), as Eric pointed out, but the taxi drivers and the small time shopkeepers? Their problem is that they don't make enough money and their wives are in Kairo, so they don't get to shag that much. No wonder they are a bit pissed off looking at the tourists with all the money, buying Russian whores at the Pascha. But it does not exactly make many of the tourist want to come back, but then again. A lot of them cant read and write, so what can you expect. Logical thinking is not always what they are about. So, yes, you have to put up with some unpleasant parts to do your diving at a price you can afford.
We sort of drifted into a discussion of Egypt's troubles as a tourist location, but what ever. It is clear that there is a real problem with contemporary Misr (especially if you're a diver from the rich Christian sphere of the world...) for diving competitions to be handled continously and with least ammount of effort. The last couple of Egyptian competitions has had to be handled by Italians
On the other hand, another Canadian world event, I'm afraid to say, is in danger of cribling the game. In '04 I heard a lot of voices critical to the event because of the coldness of the water. In the same sentence they all said it was perfectly organized, but the location was just wrong. Only ten countries participated, and it was 28 in Sardinia in '98.
The reason I think is that when one thinks of freediving, everybody thinks tropical blue waters. That's where people want to go for competitions, lying on a resport, being on vacation as well as at a competition. Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with it.
I still see great potential for freediving as a beautiful TV sport, and for that the temperate Northern can't-see-a-flying-f*** waters are no good. The clear tropical blue is perfect. The paradox is that the temperate waters is where most freedivers live and train (because of the financial realities of the planet, what ever), but people want to go South. So be it.
The Mediterrenean is a great diving area in the summer, and we've had a couple of world events in Nice and could continue going back. But if we want to find a realiable site in the tropics, the Carribean is definitely a venue to consider, even if it's more expensive most parts.
What are the accomodation conditions around Dean's Blue Hole (William T.?)? Could the area handle maybe 2-300 people for two-three weeks (not only in terms of beds and plummeting, but also environmentally speaking)? Is there a practical possibility for the area to construct an Olympic swimming pool? (One could ask AIDA for dispensation and hold the dynamic part of the worlds in open water. But then that would not make the dives eligable for world records, and then that's not attractive for people.)
How's the business culture in the Bahamas? Do people rip you off?
Another option I've contemplated is Africa, particularly Zanzibar. But I know nothing in reality.
On the other hand, another Canadian world event, I'm afraid to say, is in danger of cribling the game. In '04 I heard a lot of voices critical to the event because of the coldness of the water. In the same sentence they all said it was perfectly organized, but the location was just wrong. Only ten countries participated, and it was 28 in Sardinia in '98.
The reason I think is that when one thinks of freediving, everybody thinks tropical blue waters. That's where people want to go for competitions, lying on a resport, being on vacation as well as at a competition. Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with it.
I still see great potential for freediving as a beautiful TV sport, and for that the temperate Northern can't-see-a-flying-f*** waters are no good. The clear tropical blue is perfect. The paradox is that the temperate waters is where most freedivers live and train (because of the financial realities of the planet, what ever), but people want to go South. So be it.
The Mediterrenean is a great diving area in the summer, and we've had a couple of world events in Nice and could continue going back. But if we want to find a realiable site in the tropics, the Carribean is definitely a venue to consider, even if it's more expensive most parts.
What are the accomodation conditions around Dean's Blue Hole (William T.?)? Could the area handle maybe 2-300 people for two-three weeks (not only in terms of beds and plummeting, but also environmentally speaking)? Is there a practical possibility for the area to construct an Olympic swimming pool? (One could ask AIDA for dispensation and hold the dynamic part of the worlds in open water. But then that would not make the dives eligable for world records, and then that's not attractive for people.)
How's the business culture in the Bahamas? Do people rip you off?
Another option I've contemplated is Africa, particularly Zanzibar. But I know nothing in reality.