Yasemin Dalkilic cancels record attempt after blackout

[Kars]

Hi Aber,

Personally I'm happy as an athlete to have a real choice. If something isn't to my liking within one, I can go to the other. Real freedom and competition does help the organisations to stay sharp, lean and be a good servant to their members.

I'm also happy that different safety systems are used and improved, so we maintain and expand the knowledge.

What happened to Yasmina is very rare, and I hope she recovers fast and will try again when possible, because I'm believe she can do it.

Bill, I'm not sure what you are referring to with your post, could you pleas clarify?

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

ps. I understand that most people want everything to become 1 (one, UN) these days, but at the same time I wander how they got this wish to unification?

 

[rxcnc2]

FREE is not be as big as AIDA by number of athletes competing under its name, but if we count the number of freedivers who had a FREE instruction (I don't mean money-wise then it's another story. There are FREE instructors around, and some of them are very successful by number of students.
So I wouldn't quickly dismiss it, nor am I necessarily for having only one freediving organization. There may be benefits when there are different approaches - provided it's not only about egos.

However, when it comes to competitions, I think it's good to merge each other's experiences and compete under the same set of (presumably best) rules. Anyone can participate in an AIDA competition, regardless of whether they had an AIDA instruction course or not. So if FREE thinks that they really have something better to contribute, then AIDA should listen and integrate it. But I don't think it's very constructive to go out and say I don't like AIDA rules so I do the record under my own rules.

As for record attempts, I frankly prefer performances done in a competition. To spend several months with a dedicated follow-up team to try several times until you get it right and add a couple of meters, mostly shows that you have a good manager and good sponsors not necessarily better skills.

 

[Mullins]

What worries me about CB-systems is that it´s possible that the system isn´t triggered in time of an emergency. There´s usually no indication of trouble to the surface crew before the safety diver intervenes. So far all the cases has been above 30m. But what if someone blacksout at 50 m on a 100 dive? What is the response time of the surface crew in that situation? With immidiate response it would take ~ 30 s (1,5 m/s) for the CB to catch the diver and about +30 s to bring him to the surface. That is +1 min before surfacing and without any delays.

If somebody stopped on the way up, 1. the sonar would show it and 2. it would be obvious to the judges who are holding the line.

A diver on a CB in Yasemin's situation wouldn't have attempted to swim up regardless of the vertigo. He/she'd have given the line a tug to alert the surface safeties and held on as it came up.

I don't know the numbers but I think a CB with no diver on it is going to come up much faster than 1.5m/s. Especially if you've got a crew hauling on it to speed it up. The extra 30s to get the athlete to the surface is always going to exist regardless of what system you adopt. Unless you shoot them up tethered to a modified ICBM booster.

 

[chrismar]

Have to agree with Dave here. Having also had a go on the CB system in The Bahamas, I can assure you that it goes pretty briskly. I wasn't down at a great depth, but the line shoots up pretty quickly without a diver and was a touch shy of 2m/s with me hanging on from memory. Remember that it does that 1.5m/s in the worst case scenario; a big guy with big lungs at extreme depth.

If you're still concerned, you could just get Arthur to be official CB helper at all competitions to speed things up...

 

[trux]

Well, there will be certainly quite a difference in the reaction time anyway. Even if you watch the sonar carefully, it may take quite a bit longer before you realize something is really wrong, and decide deploying the CB. Additionally, the rescue harness FREE uses, protects the airways, preventing so that water enters the lungs, which is quite critical in such cases. Don't ask me how it is done, I did not see it, just pass what I heard from Rudi.

Then, I'd be curious if someone already tested recovering a diver with the CB in the middle depth - I fear that the base plate in full speed can injure the diver, or rip off the lanyard

That told, it is clear that using scuba safety divers all along the line are simply not possible at most competitions.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

We need to combine as many safety strategies as possible. I still would love to see a working UW camera surveillance of the entire length of the rope, that the judges can monitor from above. I don't know, stationary cameras on a seperate cam-line next to the comp-line with a line-feed to monitors on a dry section of the boat. That can justify the continued use of the lanyard and the CB, because there's a visual access to the diver at all times. (Depending of course on local visibility.)
Along with that still having one or more scuba divers positioned ready at the surface, to be deployed into the depths if need arises (eg. if the lanyard is cut off by the bottom plate, one never know).

My focus on camera surveillance also comes from my desire to see 'proper TV' from the events, the same safety images can be used by the media and through this provide continued sponsorship of events. Also, the camera use provides direct verdict ability to the judges, eg. they can better see if the athlete makes rope violations, stuff like that.

The big issue in that is budget, of course. This would probably be even more expensive than using scuba guys throughout an event, and would limit even further the number of depth events, if it has to be mandatory. But the added media consideration might provide the financial balance.

 

[rxcnc2]

Along with that still having one or more scuba divers positioned ready at the surface, to be deployed into the depths if need arises

Unless they have blocks of concrete instead of fins, mafia style, I don't think they can reach "the depths" in a useful time

A moving camera on a line next to the official one would be good, and I think it has already been used sometimes. But we have to accept that in many cases 1' from time of accident to recognition to surface is probably a hard limit, and it should still be possible to save the diver's life.

It seems more crucial to me to have proper medical staff and equipment at the dive site (i.e. not on the beach), something which costs some money too but not technically challenging.

 

[nostres]

I fear that the base plate in full speed can injure the diver

Speeding METAL base plate is quite good cutting tool, I always thought it should be way softer, something maybe like a rubber buoy filled with water?
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Mullins]

Well, there will be certainly quite a difference in the reaction time anyway. Even if you watch the sonar carefully, it may take quite a bit longer before you realize something is really wrong, and decide deploying the CB.

If a diver stops during the ascent this is immediately apparent to both the guys watching the sonar, and the judges holding the line. It wouldn't take more than a few seconds of inactivity for them to trigger the CB.

Remote video would definitely be the way to go though.

 

[Mullins]

Nostres, at VB they had a tennis ball on the line about 1m above the baseplate to catch the lanyards.

 

[trux]

If a diver stops during the ascent this is immediately apparent to both the guys watching the sonar, and the judges holding the line. It wouldn't take more than a few seconds of inactivity for them to trigger the CB.

How can the judge sense it on the rope (unless we speak about FIM style ascent)? Don't tell me they can sense in which direction the lanyard is moving. I often have problems sensing whether the diver reached the plate, when the surface if not perfectly quiet.

As for the sonar - is it mandatory now at all competitions? Is it really sensitive enough to show the diver even at 100m?

However since such a deep accident (thankfully) never happened until now (AFAIK), I do not really trust the personnel would act timely even if the sonar shows the situation quite clearly. I'd rather tell that they will simply not believe something really happened, and will wait a little to see if it is not the sonar that is screwed up, or ask a colleague what he thinks. Before they see it positively, it may be already tens of seconds after the freediver blacked out.

Remote video would definitely be the way to go though.

Surely a necessary measure, and I do not think it would be as expensive as scuba safety. There may be an important amount for the development, but such equipment would be reusable. It could be rented, or be in AIDA's property and sent to all depth competitions.

However, it still does not solve the problem with the exposed airways and water possibly entering the lungs.

Nostres, at VB they had a tennis ball on the line about 1m above the baseplate to catch the lanyards.

That would still allow the base plate to hit your head while moving 2m/s or likely even faster (while pulling no weight yet). That could be fatal. In fact the tennis ball would make the probability that the plate hits you much higher - the ball would raise the lanyard just when the base plate arrives, pulling you so to the proximity of the line even if you were farther away from it originally.

 

[efattah]

The sonar we used at Vertical Blue could track most athletes to around 70m. Occasionally, the diver was visible around 90-100m, but this was pretty rare. For example, when Dave tried for 118m, he vanished around 70m on the sonar. A long time passed, and we did not know what depth he was at. Then when he started pulling up, the judges could feel that on the rope. This could mean he had a problem (broken eardrum, cramp, other issue). So they activated the system. But, generally, once the diver goes past 70m, it is guesswork, and if the diver does not have the ability to signal by pulling on the rope, then there could be a period of 'blind' guesswork from 70m, to 130m, and back to 70m, or a blind period of up to 2 minutes.

When a diver blacks out (even deep), the laryngospasm generally lasts for about 3 minutes. This means that in most cases, no water gets into the lungs for 3 minutes after the BO, but there are obviously exceptions.

Worst case scenario, a diver attempting 130m in CW would black out on the descent around 73m, just after vanishing on the sonar. When the diver sinks and hits the plate (lanyard), this would be interpreted as the turn. Another minute would pass (2 minutes total), and when the diver doesn't appear at 70m, they would allow another allowance of perhaps 20-30 seconds, and then activate the system. Then to get him up from 130m would take about 1'26". So the diver would have been unconscious for 3'46" (2'00" + 0'20" + 1'26"), which is longer than the laryngospasm, resulting in water in the lungs.

Okay, an unlikely situation -- and no safety system is perfect. But it is important to realize that a fatality is still possible with this system.

Also, the sonar is unreliable. On the last day when Dave managed 118m successfully, we could not track him on the sonar at all. If you review the surface video, you will see that Arthur is not calling out the depths. Will T. and I were next to Arthur near the sonar, and for some reason we could not see Dave at all. If the sonar is truly a critical part of the safety, and if it is not working, then some protocol must exist if the sonar fails -- i.e. immediate activation of the counter ballast or something. On the 118m, Grant did detect the turn properly (via rope tension), but that was all the info we had.

 

[Narsil]

A few random thoughts:

If deep black outs occurred with more frequency, I wonder if some form of radio controlled 'panic button' could be utilised, perhaps strapped on to a divers arm, used to get the CB into play asap if the diver was experiencing issues.

Obviously it would be no use if the person blacks out without any warning, or chooses to ignore serious hypoxia symptoms etc.

Equally, 'narcosis negativity' at serious depth could mean some athletes giving up on dives that they could have made successfully, if the 'call for help' button was available.

One of the great challenges about depth currently is the level of commitment you have to have to each dive - you can't just pop your head out of the pool and say stuff it...

Guy

 

[rxcnc2]

On the last day when Dave managed 118m successfully, we could not track him on the sonar at all.

The stealth freediver... wearing military wetsuit? :naughty
Eric, also please tell us about the story of Herbert not doing the last dive "believing false rumors about a lack of oxygen".

I think that the emphasis should be on first aid at the dive site. Would a case like that of reviving Yasemin be handled properly if it happened at an AIDA competition?

I wonder if some form of radio controlled 'panic button' could be utilised, perhaps strapped on to a divers arm

Radio transmission under water is next to impossible (well I know that some well-budgeted Navy has achieved it, but I mean not commercially available).

 

[trux]

Radio transmission under water is next to impossible (well I know that some well-budgeted Navy has achieved it, but I mean not commercially available).

Well, it is right that EM waves are damped strongly underwater. However, there are some commercial UW communication systems available. They usually use quite low frequencies for the transmission, because they are being damped less. For example this one AquaComm: Underwater Wireless Modem. It claims 3km range. But it is an overkill for transmitting a simple signal. Ultrasonic, or simply sonic transmission would be probably a simpler and cheaper option.

What would be more interesting would be wireless transmission of the monitoring video camera. That would enable building a very simple system, gliding on the line and attached to the lanyard. Unfortunately the bandwidth of the wireless systems is insufficient for video transmission, and sonic transmission is useless too in this case.

I think the use of the signalling machine without some kind of monitor and an automated trigger makes little sense, and would bring too little improvement for the added cost and discomfort it would represent. Finally the diver can signal an emergency by tugging the line, so having a possibility to send an emergency signal by other means would not change a lot.

 

[Mullins]

An autonomous recovery vest like the one Terry Maas has designed would be useful as long as it didn't interfere with streamlining too much. I'm considering buying one for training, as we don't have a CB system here in the lake. Also, something that increased the return to the sonar would help - the VB one was only tracking divers to 70m or so as Eric says, but if the signal return could be improved it would read deeper. More expensive units with gruntier transducers should be able to pick up divers beyond 100m in any case.

 

[Fitz-Clarke]

I will refrain from debate on safety and recovery systems for now. However, the explanation given that "bleeding continued into the lungs which reacted by swelling up upon ascent" does not make sense from a medical perspective. Accidents rarely have a single cause. I think it is possible that she had some difficulty equalizing ears on descent, perhaps due to a lingering virus, and also suffered alternobaric vertigo, which can occur if there is a large pressure difference between middle ear spaces on each side. This combined with some narcosis could cause severe disorientation and departure from the line. It is also conceivable that she aspirated water at depth, and experienced laryngospasm with tight closure of the glottis. Carbon dioxide accumulation and associated reflexes then stimulate strong diaphragmatic contractions against a closed glottis that can result in negative pressure pulmonary edema. This part is not difficult to explain. It would be very useful to see hospital records and chest xray or CT if those can be made available.

However, none of this explains why there would be loss of consciousness at the astounding depth of 40 metres! It is much too deep for shallow-water hypoxia of ascent, as the arterial PO2 would still be quite high at this depth (at least 200-300 mmHg). I would suggest that this incident had little or nothing to do with hypoxia. Re-expansion of packed lung volume on ascent if the glottis is closed near the surface could cause some drop in blood pressure due to impaired venous return, but not at this depth. Again, it does not expain a deep blackout. Since BP cannot be measured at depth, this suggestion is purely speculation. Perhaps not enough cerebral oxygen delivery. But why? What was the total dive time? Can we see the dive profile? What was her heart rate on surfacing? Hypoxia will usually relax a laryngospasm. If she happened to still have a vigorous laryngospasm on the surface, that might argue against profound hypoxia.

Was there true loss of consciousness at that depth, or did it happen closer to the surface? A potential mechanism for LOC at such a depth is worrisome, and is not explained.

 

[trux]

There is a continuing debate about the accident on Yasemnin's website, so I copied your post there too, Dr. Fitz-Clarke. Hope you do not mind.

Yasemin’s record attempt series ends with a dive to 106m Yasemin Dalkilic

 

[Kars]

In regard to the monitor sled Christian Proposed, I think it's indeed a good idea for deep and high profile competitions.

I just made a quick sketch, to explore how it could be made, trying to making it functional, practical and affordable.

The distance between the cam and the line should be wide enough to avoid entanglement. Also note the triangle wing sled design of the light and cam, it should ensure the sled to stay stable and parallel course to the bottom and back. Deans Blue hole would be perfect since there is no current, but maybe some aqua foils should be considered to steer the sled being so remote.

The sled's High power lights could be powered from 12v batteries from the surface.

Also note the plate is a cone, for speed and bumping comfort. I think transparent white plastic would do the job.

The tags should be made of white Velcro and some neoprene so they float up and are easily visible.

When you motorise the competition line too, you can bring it up every time after the athletes turns, OR Get some beefy GREEKS!

 

[Jouskari]

... and here´s the cam for the rig. Decently priced compared to ROV:s. It would probably need a wide angle lens, but othervise it would probably do the trick.

SeaViewer Underwater Video Cameras: Sea-Drop Underwater video camera

-J