Yoga, Samba and BO

[Elduderinio]

Hi everybody

I'm not sure if this already was a topic on this forum, so I keep it as short as possible for now and if I recite old stuff here, please just direct me to the according thread, tnx. If you need more info, I have heaps ready.

I do yoga as a part of my training once to twice a week together with my yogi (Hatha / Kundalini) plus a short session on my own every day.

When I do certain exercises, then I get very strong reactions from my body. e.g. pushing out the belly, or twisting the upper body around the vertical axis on an inhale apnea in upright position gives me a heat sensation from the back of my head, I get tunnel vision, sometimes lose sight, I hear loud humming in my ears and my whole body goes hot.

Well, I guess that's those "strong feelings" that every yogi is talking about.

But for me, things go further - once I lost consciousness because I did not know how strong these feelings, that come over me like a wave, can be. Now I anticipate that wave, regulate it by the strength of my breathing, but still, sometimes I can feel that the approaching wave will be too strong and I have to crouch down to not loose consciousness, again.

In this save position I sometimes loose completely the feeling of who I am, where I am, what I was about to do and whats next. And it happens that I get a kind of samba, I can feel myself shaking in long, soft waves, and I have no control over it. After a moment, everything clears up, the wave goes by and leaves a wonderful, warm feeling inside me.

Does anybody know what I'm talking about? I've seen fellow students crouching down, too, and they tell me about similar feelings, they know about the wave.

As freediving in one way is a very scientific experience for me, I'm curious to learn, what happens here. Yogi tell me how wonderful these feelings are and how blest I am to experience them - well, I probably am but still, I'd like to know what science has to tell about that. I don't want to skip science. I'd like to know the point, where science ends, because that's where the wonder begins.

So, here's probably a scientific input: I found out, that the wave only gets me, when I am a) standing upright and b) the exercise we're doing works the nervus vagus. All my medical numbers are normal, pulse, blood pressure, shoe size.. everything, ..well, as expected for a 196cm tall guy.

Your input is very appreciated!
Oli

 

[Mullins]

Sounds like you're just dropping cerebral blood pressure to the point of samba. Like a packing blackout.

 

[Simos]

Dave you just took all the magic out of it lol

Not too sure Oli, I do a bit of yoga here and there and while I feel the 'heat' and the occasional head rush, I never got close to a BO.

Whatever it is that's causing it, from a scientific point of view blacking out can't be good... Are you holding your breath while practising? Say when you are doing the spinal twist? If yes then Dave is probably right..
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[Elduderinio]

Dave you just took all the magic out of it lol

Not too sure Oli, I do a bit of yoga here and there and while I feel the 'heat' and the occasional head rush, I never got close to a BO.

Whatever it is that's causing it, from a scientific point of view blacking out can't be good... Are you holding your breath while practising? Say when you are doing the spinal twist? If yes then Dave is probably right..
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Thanks for your replies.

All exercises we do are based on getting your body into a certain position, then take a full breath, then hold the position while contracting your muscles in your butt or popping out your belly.

And there's a third thing which is pulling your belly in and up on an exhale - the famous Pranayama move every respectable yoga practicing freediver has a picture off himself doing it.

The feelings I described only appear on the "inhale and pump out your belly".

Mullins, what's would be the mechanics and chemistry in my body that would cause my blood pressure to drop to a point where my brain doesn't get enough oxygen anymore? It sounds reasonable, but I cannot explain how this would work. Why would it only happen to me?

 

[Mullins]

If it's occurring on the inhale, it's likely to be your lungs putting a bit of pressure on your heart or arteries, limiting cerebral blood flow. Being tall, there is a big pressure gradient from your feet to your head and a lot of work for your heart to do whenever you're sitting/standing upright. You might be hyperventilating a bit too, since deep breaths are involved. You mentioned your fellow students are experiencing he same thing, so it might be quite common? Also, are you fasting before yoga sessions? The best way of avoiding packing blackouts/sambas seems to be to eat beforehand.

 

[Kars]

Following your description I tried your Yoga move, and indeed I feel that it's messing up my blood flow, even while sitting on a chair, not long after a meal.

Like Dave said, if you're tall, relaxed, hyperventilated, low on moist etc it's easy to get lightheaded. It's like standing fast up in the morning after a long relaxed night.

As of what's happening inside, it might be that because of the belly pressure, you clamp an artery and stretching it between the heart and the belly, narrowing it, collapsing it locally somewhere along the line?

What is the purpose of that particular exercise?

 

[Elduderinio]

Following your description I tried your Yoga move, and indeed I feel that it's messing up my blood flow, even while sitting on a chair, not long after a meal.

Like Dave said, if you're tall, relaxed, hyperventilated, low on moist etc it's easy to get lightheaded. It's like standing fast up in the morning after a long relaxed night.

As of what's happening inside, it might be that because of the belly pressure, you clamp an artery and stretching it between the heart and the belly, narrowing it, collapsing it locally somewhere along the line?

What is the purpose of that particular exercise?

No way that I could do this after a meal - 3h after my last bite, I'm ready.

The purpose of Yoga exercices is the same for all (and I'm using the yogi language for now): Spread prana and activate the nervous system. The three forms of breath holds are your prana pump, and the body position directs the prana and activates nerves that are usually not activated.

So, there's no certain purpose for applying belly pressure - you do it over and over again.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Elduderinio]

If it's occurring on the inhale, it's likely to be your lungs putting a bit of pressure on your heart or arteries, limiting cerebral blood flow. Being tall, there is a big pressure gradient from your feet to your head and a lot of work for your heart to do whenever you're sitting/standing upright. You might be hyperventilating a bit too, since deep breaths are involved. You mentioned your fellow students are experiencing he same thing, so it might be quite common? Also, are you fasting before yoga sessions? The best way of avoiding packing blackouts/sambas seems to be to eat beforehand.

Thanks Mullins, that makes sense to me.

Yes, there are many series of heavy belly breathing involved - full-on inhale/exhale cycles, as hard as you can, up to 20 times in a row. That's hardcore HV, but I can't see the link of low CO2 to my experiences - can you?

You are right, when I eat before a session, I cannot do these HV-cycles or push out my belly without feeling sick - problem solved

Cheers!

 

[trux]

...I can't see the link of low CO2 to my experiences - can you?

Hyperventilation has strong effect on cerebral flow. The more you hyperventilate, the more the carotid arteries constrict, and the less oxygen the brain gets. Hence hypoxic and fainting feelings are rather natural in such situation, and losing the consciousness is also easily possible.

 

[Elduderinio]

Hyperventilation has strong effect on cerebral flow. The more you hyperventilate, the more the carotid arteries constrict, and the less oxygen the brain gets. Hence hypoxic and fainting feelings are rather natural in such situation, and losing the consciousness is also easily possible.

Thanks for that.

So, what you basically say is: BO is a part, if not the purpose of Hatha Yoga.

Or to put it a bit less harsh, the positive effects of yoga (which we haven't discussed here) have to be counter balanced to the effects, as you describe them.

Know what I mean?

 

[trux]

I would not tell that BO is the purpose, but the near-BO hypoxic state may be interesting for yogis, because it strongly modifies the mind state. But then again, although in my youth I practicized hatha yoga for many years, I am no expert, and frankly told its mysticity and all those enigmatic terms it uses rather irritate me today. In fact I prefer a more rational approach, like for example that of sophrology, which instead of throwing on you incomprehensible Indian words and mystic terms, tries to explain all the effects rationally and scientifically in plain language that I can understand.

 

[Johan Andersson]

I agree with what have already been mentioned about a high pressure in the thorax (intrathoracic pressure) affecting the arteries and the heart, reducing the blood pressure and cerebral blood flow.

In addition, a much smaller pressure is needed to affect the veins going back to the heart, reducing the so called venous return, which can also cause a reduction in blood pressure and cerebral blood flow. The pressure needed to cause this is much smaller than the pressure needed to affect the heart and arteries, because of the lower blood pressure in the veins than in the arteries.

/Johan

 

[Elduderinio]

Ah c'mon guys, now you really start to take the magic off it..

Thanks a lot for these insights about what's going on in my body, very appreciated!

My freediving and my overall well being benefit both a lot from yoga, in other words, there are positive aspects in yoga for me. Now we see that there are also less positive aspects to yoga - I agree, there's no good in samba and BO.

For me this means: The goal is to find a balance between these aspects - what does it mean to you?

Cheers
Oli

 

[trux]

Well, if you learn to cope with it, recognizing the onset early enough, and avoiding the LMC / BO, then it may be already quite positive, indeed, because it may perhaps help you recognizing easier hypoxic signs when diving, and avoiding an accident there too. Though, don't take it for granted

 

[Fondueset]

Twists (with head turning) and also Jalandhara can put mild pressure on the carotid sinus as well - lowering blood pressure. Some people are more sensitive to this than others.

Extending the parts of the breath in pranayama has a number of benefits - notable improvement of circulation to heart and brain.

When we start to get into the Kundalini business - there it becomes important to be down to earth about what is going on. Since there is a TENDANCY to be oriented to the experiencing of various states there is potential for desire to override sensitivity. I think for this type of Yoga good instruction is essential. Did you talk to your teacher about this?

On the surface your description does sound like a bo/samba - used to be a fad with high-school kids to induce this. There is the same rushing, little seizures, heat and afterward a very peaceful feeling high. They would do this by inhaling and having someone push on their chest - or pushing the belly out as you've described. ( can quite easily induce the phenomena you've described simply by applying pressure to the carotid sinus with my fingertips)

While yoga practice is obviously useful I am of the opinion that orientation to and around special states and phenomena as goals is no different than a compulsive need to go on vacation. At the same time - the capacity to change one's state can be tremendously practical and is certainly one of the benefits of good practice.

Eric Fattah has written some on his experience with very intense pranayama and resulting unmistakable Kundalini phenomena - which became quite problematic for him, to the extent that he discontinued the practice.

On the other hand, Sara Campbell is a Kundalini Yoga practitioner and teacher and has had quite good success with freediving

 

[Elduderinio]

Thanks again for all your inputs, guys!

When we start to get into the Kundalini business - there it becomes important to be down to earth about what is going on. Since there is a TENDANCY to be oriented to the experiencing of various states there is potential for desire to override sensitivity. I think for this type of Yoga good instruction is essential. Did you talk to your teacher about this?

In fact, you are right. These "special states" or "special feelings" that come up are absolutely the purpose of the way my yogi is teaching. And he warns before starting a session not to push it, to be aware, or at least make sure to have enough room behind you..just in case.

While yoga practice is obviously useful I am of the opinion that orientation to and around special states and phenomena as goals is no different than a compulsive need to go on vacation. At the same time - the capacity to change one's state can be tremendously practical and is certainly one of the benefits of good practice.

Yep, I agree. E.g. it's great to be able to put yourself in vacation mode, just like that.

Eric Fattah has written some on his experience with very intense pranayama and resulting unmistakable Kundalini phenomena - which became quite problematic for him, to the extent that he discontinued the practice.

Do you have a link for me where I can read this up?

On the other hand, Sara Campbell is a Kundalini Yoga practitioner and teacher and has had quite good success with freediving

:naughty..but she's not quite 196cm tall, as far as I know