10km time vs Apnea ability, etc.

[donmoore]

shorter more intense cardio

I am wondering if a shorter running distance than 10K would be more beneficial for freediving. It seems to me the ability to fill the lungs with large amounts of air, and to extract the oxygen out of this air, is a process that 800 and 1500 meter runners are better at than 10K runners.

I know the average person is exposed to the classic 5K & 10K public runs much more and there is the old athletic saying that cardio needs to be at least 20 minutes long, (which by the way was finally disproved), but just because its popular doesn’t make it the best. Another disadvantage to long distance running is it lowers testosterone and is cannibolic to muscle. I am naturally thin and have to work hard to put muscle on and keep it so avoiding the cannibolic thing is important to me. Lower testosterone also results in lower hemoglobin.

For me I prefer shorter, faster runs. I just started freediving this summer so I am newbie when it comes to freediving, but have been involved in athletics and around running all my life. Heck I grew up in Eugene, OR the former running capital of the world!

My usual runs are 1000M (1,037M to be exact) which just happens to be the distance from the sidewalk in front of my house to the club I lift weights in. I run it hard and fast and push my lungs to their max. Four months ago I could barely do a land static of 2:00, yesterday I did 4:30. My resting heart rate is 46 beats a minute. By the way, I’m 42. I have a running goal of 5 minute for 1500M, which doesn’t seem that fast, but I checked the results of some master track meets in my area and it would have won first place in the over 40 division in two of the meets. I going to make some freediving goals to, once I take my first class in two weeks and know more. I love training for something! It’s much easier to keep motivated!

Just my 2 cents.
Don

 

[efattah]

My theory

I just researched this topic to death, both by reading books and papers and by analyzing my own successes and failures in my journal, and correlating them to what I was doing. The bottom line is that any exercise does improve your diving, but the best combination is to do intervals & resistance training. By intervals I mean a 10-15min warm up, followed by 3 minute 'sprints', 1-min rest, 3-min sprint, 1-min rest, until you are finished (sprints is not necessarily running, it could be any form of exercise involving legs). At the end of each 3-min sprint, you should 'fail', i.e. be unable to continue at all. However, don't try such intense exercise until you have gone through at least 2 weeks of slower build up exercises. Basically, the hypoxia of the intervals induces hemoglobin production, and the acids in your legs improve lactate threshold. During resistance training, you increase the creatine & ATP stored in your muscles.

Long slower cardio induces much different results, less appropriate for freediving (for example, reduction of fast twitch muscle fibers, reduction of Cr/ATP vs. resistance/interval training, low BP, etc.)


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[donmoore]

Excellent Eric!

Excellent Eric! You make us all better!
Don

 

[donmoore]

cortisol

Eric and All,
I think you could add cortisol to the not so good list of long slower cardio effects. As I remember from studying it some years ago, it was an increase in cortisol, a powerful catabolic hormone, that was responsible for reduction of lean muscle mass in endurance athletes.
Don

 

[efattah]

Anabolism & Catabolism

If you are interested in learning about the interplay of the various anabolic & catabolic hormones, as they relate to diet & exercise, read the book 'Natural Hormonal Enhancement' by Rob Faigin (http://www.extique.com). This is a must read for serious athletes.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Lynn]

fly and die workout

Ha Eric

your 'best results' training sounds familiar! Out here (UCSD, masters swimming) we have a very nice killer workout called "Fly and Die".

It means that after a short warmup (a series of short reps. of max 200m at a comfortable interval) you start with a 200m full sprint (same speed as one would do the 25) = fly.
Take 10s rest and go for 6 x 100m on your standard freestyle speed (=base interval, 10s rest in between the 100's).
Then 1 minute to recover (No more!) and you do a 300m full sprint. Give it all you have, fly & die, you'll start to experience a nice dose of acidity in your muscles.
Then, 10s rest and 6 x 100m I.M. (Individual medley = 25m butterfly, 25m backstroke, 25m breaststroke, 25m freestyle).
1 minute 20s rest, then: 400m all out. Don't stop now: after the workout you'll feel like you've died and gone to heaven.
10s rest and finish off with 6 x 100m on your base interval.
Please warm down if you are still able to move!

Have fun!

Lynn

 

[DeepThought]

cortisol

donmoore :
I think you could add cortisol to the not so good list of long slower cardio effects. As I remember from studying it some years ago, it was an increase in cortisol, a powerful catabolic hormone, that was responsible for reduction of lean muscle mass in endurance athletes.
Don

Don, I've never studied this, so I might be way off, but I was under the impression that cortisol was a "stress" hormone, and in moderate amount it affects as Insolin, which for what I understand, makes it an anabolic hormone.
The body produces cortisol mainly in the mornings (that's why bodybuilders prefer training in the morning), and it makes you more alert, and helps your brain to cope with new situations, that's the reason some ppl claim to have better brain functions in the mornings.

In high amounts Coritsol tends to cause harm - ruin consentration, and even cause physical damage due to chronic stress.

Am I right? or did I mix cortisol with some other hormone?

And as long I'm talking about hormones, does anyone know what can I gain or lose if my Thyroid gland produce 3 times the normal amount of thyroid hormons(T3/T4)?

 

[efattah]

Cortisol

According to Rob Faigin in 'Natural Hormonal Enhancement' (which contains 1700 references), Cortisol is definitely catabolic, and should be minimized.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[DeepThought]

Fly and Die

Lynn, I almost thought you meant SPRINT RUNNING, really got me sweating there for a moment. :blackeye

Not that I'm capable to 'sprint swim' all that anyhow, respect.

 

[DeepThought]

cortisol, again...

Hmm, was I way off? Is it the same hormone from my decription?

 

[DeepThought]

All apologies.

I ran 'cortisol' in babylon, and that's what 'Aids Glossary' says about cortisol:

"a steroid hormone secreted by the adrenal cortex as part of the body's response to stress. Cortisol promotes the breakdown of body tissues to provide energy and raw materials; high cortisol levels are associated with reduced immune function. Synthetic cortisol (hydrocortisone) is used to reduce inflammation and lessen allergic reactions. "

So it is a stress hormone, and it is catabolic.

sorry about the mess.

 

[donmoore]

Michael,
I’m no expert either, but by discussion and study, we all learn more. I remember reading about Cortisol being one of the negatives of long cardio, but then I saw some stuff the other day, when we started discussing it on this group, and it seemed to be saying that any intense exercise, cardio or resistance training increases cortisol. Does one cause more than the other? I don’t really know.

I used to follow an anti-aging newsgroup and there was one man, who had just wrote a book about the subject, who was adamant about being against any cardio exercise, because of increase cortisol. Myself and some others politely challenged his narrow view by suggesting that the heart, being a muscle too, needed exercise. We suggested that if Coritsol was such a major problem, then we should be able to control it with other substances while being able to get a moderate amount of cardio. How could we blindly go against years of scientific study that said cardio was good? His posts were fast and furriest condemning us for even considering that he might not be totally correct. About four months later he died of a heart attack.

I remember that some on the anti-aging newsgroup starting getting their cortisol levels checked, but they were a little disappointed in the inconclusiveness of the results. Apparent the test could vary greatly by the time of day, food, and other factors.

Eric’s suggestion for the book 'Natural Hormonal Enhancement' by Rob Faigin sounds like a good one.
Don

 

[DeepThought]

donmoore:
About four months later he died of a heart attack.

Cruel irony (not that it settles the arguement).

Apparent the test could vary greatly by the time of day, food, and other factors

By the daily cycle cortisol tends to be high at mornings, and also produced when the brain is facing a new situation or stressed.

I think that if someone would want to get a real estimate on cortisol levels he (or she) should be tested several times in a period on the same time of day (or maybe even number of times a day).

 

[JimGlynn]

cortisol

Its my understanding from bike racing that excess cortisol production is a factor in overtraining that slowly happens over time. Oftentimes during the race season a kind of burnout manifests itself from too much high intensity riding near or over one's anaerobic threshold. I have been there and it feels miserable. The only Rx is rest until the levels drop back to normal.

Cortisol
Cortisol is a catabolic hormone which induces the breakdown of cellular proteins. Cortisol increases as intense exercise is prolonged (Di Pasquale, 1992c). Submaximal exercise at lower intensities (i.e. 63% maximum oxygen consumption) stimulates lower cortisol response than higher intensities (i.e. 86% maximum oxygen consumption) (Farrell, Garthwaite, & Gustafson, 1983; Naveri, 1985). In men, significant elevations in cortisol seem to reduce endongenous testosterone by acting directly upon the testis to impair the biosynthesis of testosterone (Di Pasquale, 1992c).

 

[DeepThought]

JimGlynn:
Cortisol increases as intense exercise is prolonged (Di Pasquale, 1992c). Submaximal exercise at lower intensities (i.e. 63% maximum oxygen consumption) stimulates lower cortisol response than higher intensities (i.e. 86% maximum oxygen consumption) (Farrell, Garthwaite, & Gustafson, 1983; Naveri, 1985)

How can someone know his max oxygen consumption? without excersizing in a bubble, I mean. Is there a rough formula for it? by a calculation of cardio or some other mean?

JimGlynn:
In men, significant elevations in cortisol seem to reduce endongenous testosterone by acting directly upon the testis to impair the biosynthesis of testosterone (Di Pasquale, 1992c).

We don't want that now, would we?
10x for your contribution Jim.

 

[Bill]

How can someone know his max oxygen consumption?

In liters it is difficult. In %, you can use heart rate. I think it is very linear as long as you stay aerobic. 230 minus age times 0.8, roughly. Used to have a 160 limit, for the under 30 crowd, too.

Aloha
Bill

 

[DeepThought]

You mean that my max consumption rate should be linear with my max aerobic heartrate?

This formula gives me 165.6 max HR for aerobic. Or 160 by limit. 63% of my oxygen consumption should be at 104bpm.

But what if I wanna train with anaerobics? like sprinting, or dynamic, or any other kind of apnea training?

 

[Bill]

Most aerobic training can be done at 70%. Anaerobic training is done at the 85% plus level and as close to real conditions as possible. Things like, two minute all out effort, rest until the pulse is under 100, 1:50 all out, rest, 1:40....etc.. It must be tough to train now, the coach can download your workout parameters second by second and file them.
I'm still trying to figure out how much of a dive or dynamic is aerobic.
Aloha
Bill

 

[DeepThought]

10x bill.
The reason I'm asking these questions is because I decided that if I am to workout, the aim should be my heart muscle. I discovered that if I'm connected to a heart-bit monitor I can lower my heart-rate significantly, and very easy. You see, I want to play my strong cards, which in my opinion, are heart-rate, and static apnea ability. I don't think that I will never break any record in freediving, it is just for recreation.

Eric Fattah posted in this form that spirnting should be a good training for hard cardio, and stated the advantages of it. Sprinting sounds to me like a good training because it's seems easy to persist with it, my only fear is not knowing when I am overdoing it, because in my opinion, over training cause more harm than no training (since i'm naturally fit ).

If there's any way of training the heart muscle, stranage as it is, that anyone can advise, I'de like to hear it. Even if it's as strange as 'not eating 12 hours before a sprint training' (which I have no problem with doing, but it sounds pretty catabolic).