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A Finswimmer wannabe dilemma
- Thread startersakina z
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Hey, thanks ApneaAddict. I look forward to it. I'm lucky enough to live close to Laguna Beach which has a ton of marine life. I marvel at it each time I swim there. I know there's ton of stuff at the bottom (~30-50 feet) but have not explored it so far. This morning for example I saw a medium size grey shape slowly sticking in and out of the reef at the bottom. It barely moved though. I have no clue what it was. Not kelp, not a sea lion for sure. It could have been a guitar fish. I tried to dive but didn t go far. Here's a guitar fish from Laguna:
Hi Sakina, I agree with cdavis / Connor that having an early onset of lactic acid in the legs is great for freediving 
Lactic acid means to me that those limps are not using O2 any more, leaving more O2 for the heart and brain. Personally I have the opposite, my lactic acid always starts late.
Relaxation, breathing technique, swimming technique and streamlining are key factors to extend your dives.
Here are a few quick tips:
Relaxation.
Most people have tense muscles in place or another. A trick to find those tensions is have another person move your body as you relax those parts, you'll both feel your muscles resistance in not fully relaxed parts. Another trick is to purposefully tense parts for a second and let go. Like raising your shoulders up high hold for a few seconds and let go. Another way is auto(self) suggestion. This is a form of self hypnosis. First lay down relaxed, and focus and observe on your natural breathing, without judgement or direction. Then, when you feel relaxed, start telling/suggesting/commanding parts of your body to become heavy, very heavy in a rhythm that follows your heart-rate. Start with small parts, like your hand and visualise it with your eyes closed and in your minds eye see it become relaxed and heavy. Slow but surely your body is going to respond to your commands. For fun you auto suggest also body parts warming up, or cooling You can also slow your heart-rate.
At the shallow end of the pool standing in the water, you can use the slow easy belly breathing to centre your focus, and to slow down your heart-rate. Lifting and dropping your shoulders may also help if you suspect they are tense. It's an area where (work) stress usually builds up. The more relaxed you start, the better. As I've experienced one can only loose relaxation once the dive has started.
Breathing.
Most people learn to breath wrong due to bad examples and stress.
Chest breathing is useful for fight and flight, but for relaxation one needs relaxed belly breathing. Lay down, or sit strait and put 1 hand on your chest, one on your belly and feel how your normal breathing is. Is it chest only, or chest belly, or belly chest, or only belly? Practice belly breathing.
Breath-up/final breath.
Some people call it breath-up, as if they need to hyperventilate and collect a large volume of air. I disagree with this term, as I see the breaths before the final breath as a way to slow down one's metabolism. One does so with easy relaxed belly breathing. Breathing more then you need (hyperventilation) increases one's metabolism and lowers your CO2 in your bloodstream, which in turn increases your O2 consumption.
What I do favour is to have a full breath of fresh air. As a final breath, exhale all air, and inhale slowly from the belly up until you're full, hold, relax shoulders and start your dive.
Swimming technique.
It determines your efficiency. The particular technique(s) used are dependent on: your aim, your environment (surface/under water), material and your physical abilities. For instance you describe a difficult shoulder, this may mean that having arms over head (like streamlining monofinners do) may not be an option for you. Also your speed may vary according to your foil/fin. All fins have an ideal speed, the speed where they have the best efficiency. I suspect your foil has one too. But then your body has also an ideal movement speed. I suggest trying a wide range of speeds and compare the results, it's great fun!
Streamlining.
Did you know when swimming dynamic without fins one can gain about 60% efficiency by looking down to the line instead of looking ahead? Improoving streamlining is the fastest way to get more distance. There is 1 catch, people tense up in an effort to be like a stiff torpedo, so one needs to find a middle ground.
Also the swimming technique need to consider streamlining. Beginners with a monofin often bend their knees to kick the blade down and have propulsion. In proper monofin technique it's a full body movement.
1 Push of the wall and be streamlined and strait, looking down; perhaps even a bit backwards if you have a stiff upper back (like me).
2 Then push your arms a bit up to lift your strait body at small angle,
3 Rotate your hips forward and keep you legs strait,
4 With tension on your legs push your bottom up,
5 Now your body rotates forward and goes forward as your hips, legs and foil returns to the horizontal position.
I hope this helps to get a going, feel free to ask for seconds
I also like to remind you of the Deeperblue search function, which also cover most if not all off your question.
If you are in my vicinity you're invited to share some training time.
Tell us how it goes, I'm especially interested in how your Pilot foil performs with the all the possible speeds, including full on sprint. (watch the wall though...)
Love, Courage and Water,
Kars
Lactic acid means to me that those limps are not using O2 any more, leaving more O2 for the heart and brain. Personally I have the opposite, my lactic acid always starts late.
Relaxation, breathing technique, swimming technique and streamlining are key factors to extend your dives.
Here are a few quick tips:
Relaxation.
Most people have tense muscles in place or another. A trick to find those tensions is have another person move your body as you relax those parts, you'll both feel your muscles resistance in not fully relaxed parts. Another trick is to purposefully tense parts for a second and let go. Like raising your shoulders up high hold for a few seconds and let go. Another way is auto(self) suggestion. This is a form of self hypnosis. First lay down relaxed, and focus and observe on your natural breathing, without judgement or direction. Then, when you feel relaxed, start telling/suggesting/commanding parts of your body to become heavy, very heavy in a rhythm that follows your heart-rate. Start with small parts, like your hand and visualise it with your eyes closed and in your minds eye see it become relaxed and heavy. Slow but surely your body is going to respond to your commands. For fun you auto suggest also body parts warming up, or cooling
You can also slow your heart-rate.At the shallow end of the pool standing in the water, you can use the slow easy belly breathing to centre your focus, and to slow down your heart-rate. Lifting and dropping your shoulders may also help if you suspect they are tense. It's an area where (work) stress usually builds up. The more relaxed you start, the better. As I've experienced one can only loose relaxation once the dive has started.
Breathing.
Most people learn to breath wrong due to bad examples and stress.
Chest breathing is useful for fight and flight, but for relaxation one needs relaxed belly breathing. Lay down, or sit strait and put 1 hand on your chest, one on your belly and feel how your normal breathing is. Is it chest only, or chest belly, or belly chest, or only belly? Practice belly breathing.
Breath-up/final breath.
Some people call it breath-up, as if they need to hyperventilate and collect a large volume of air. I disagree with this term, as I see the breaths before the final breath as a way to slow down one's metabolism. One does so with easy relaxed belly breathing. Breathing more then you need (hyperventilation) increases one's metabolism and lowers your CO2 in your bloodstream, which in turn increases your O2 consumption.
What I do favour is to have a full breath of fresh air. As a final breath, exhale all air, and inhale slowly from the belly up until you're full, hold, relax shoulders and start your dive.
Swimming technique.
It determines your efficiency. The particular technique(s) used are dependent on: your aim, your environment (surface/under water), material and your physical abilities. For instance you describe a difficult shoulder, this may mean that having arms over head (like streamlining monofinners do) may not be an option for you. Also your speed may vary according to your foil/fin. All fins have an ideal speed, the speed where they have the best efficiency. I suspect your foil has one too. But then your body has also an ideal movement speed. I suggest trying a wide range of speeds and compare the results, it's great fun!
Streamlining.
Did you know when swimming dynamic without fins one can gain about 60% efficiency by looking down to the line instead of looking ahead? Improoving streamlining is the fastest way to get more distance. There is 1 catch, people tense up in an effort to be like a stiff torpedo, so one needs to find a middle ground.
Also the swimming technique need to consider streamlining. Beginners with a monofin often bend their knees to kick the blade down and have propulsion. In proper monofin technique it's a full body movement.
1 Push of the wall and be streamlined and strait, looking down; perhaps even a bit backwards if you have a stiff upper back (like me).
2 Then push your arms a bit up to lift your strait body at small angle,
3 Rotate your hips forward and keep you legs strait,
4 With tension on your legs push your bottom up,
5 Now your body rotates forward and goes forward as your hips, legs and foil returns to the horizontal position.
I hope this helps to get a going, feel free to ask for seconds
I also like to remind you of the Deeperblue search function, which also cover most if not all off your question.
If you are in my vicinity you're invited to share some training time.
Tell us how it goes, I'm especially interested in how your Pilot foil performs with the all the possible speeds, including full on sprint. (watch the wall though...)
Love, Courage and Water,
Kars
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You also gain SIGNIFICANT hydrodynamic benefit with one arm above your head, vs none. This is how most monofin'ers descend while equalizing with the other.
Your injury makes you a "natural" CWT line diver. Once you learn on the line... And take a course, 30-50ft will be casual, recreational stuff.
Your injury makes you a "natural" CWT line diver. Once you learn on the line... And take a course, 30-50ft will be casual, recreational stuff.
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sakina z: please post your experiences after you have worked with your new fins. I am a surface swimmer, also. I am interested in obtaining some type of dolphin fin for myself. Kars is right; relaxing is the singular most important thing about swimming. I did not see the word "floating" in the message. Even though you have grasp the concept of swimming, it would be very good to go to some place like the Y.M.C.A. and have an instructor go over the various strokes with you. Ask if if they have a trainer (as in swim team coach) and ask the trainer to "critique" your strokes. It is also a very good idea to take a course in life saving because it will further your knowledge of the aquatic environment. There is never such a thing as useless knowledge when it comes to being in that kind of environment. There are things that people just would not think that are dangerous. (like, did you know more people drown in shallow water then in deep water?)
I don't see any way you could be developing "dead legs" in only 25 yards without a very very early and strong dive reflex. Suspiciously so, but I don't see a better explanation. Since the single, most important factor in having long, comfortable, safe dives is a strong early DR, good genetic luck may have given you a fabulous base on which to build apnea skills and performance. Enjoy!
The link has some good stuff in it, but notice the lack of anything about DR. Not a lot of deep understanding there, and some of the ideas are pretty out of date. I'd approach the information presented on breathup, interval, purging, and hyperventilation with caution.
Suggestion: Do some real diving 20-30 ft, 45 seconds or so, more if its comfortable, then go take a good course before you have a chance to develop bad habits. I did mine after 40 years of bad habits. Very hard to get rid of them.
The link has some good stuff in it, but notice the lack of anything about DR. Not a lot of deep understanding there, and some of the ideas are pretty out of date. I'd approach the information presented on breathup, interval, purging, and hyperventilation with caution.
Suggestion: Do some real diving 20-30 ft, 45 seconds or so, more if its comfortable, then go take a good course before you have a chance to develop bad habits. I did mine after 40 years of bad habits. Very hard to get rid of them.
It turns out that Sakina appears to dive much like I used to dive: No snorkel, and in a perpetual state of partial apnea. She 'surface swims' mostly underwater in short dives with only a breath or two between them. In my case, this swimming style, extended over many hours in the water and doing this for many years made me very well conditioned for freediving. I had a good dive reflex (DR) already built in. I just needed someone to show me how to relax before diving and charge my blood system with oxygen, and like that, I was diving for Team USA a few weeks later. So, it may not be such a surprise that her DR appears to be happening early. Without a proper breath-up, she may be starting the dive 1/2 way to DR even before submerging.
Hahahaha! Cracking up here! U guises!.. Don't get ur hopes too high just yet. Let s see if i can figure out a fin that works and can afford first. Plus, it wld be Team Algeria for a better chance to break some record at least nationally (don t know of any female competing there.. I think)
I did a bit of reading about DR (fascinating stuff) and it looks like the reason why I have early DR (if indeed that s what I experience) is not so much a result of my genetic fabric. I read that DR happens when one submerses their face in water, especially when it's cold. I have been an open water swimmer for close to 2 years. I swim year round, 3-5 times/wk, no wetsuit, in H2O temps ranging from 52-72 depending on the season. My pod swims anywhere from 1.5mi-6mi depending on the season with longer swims in the summer thanks to warmer waters. So, maybe swimming often, marathon style, in colder water preps up human bodies to experience early DR, no?
Not sure about that, Connor. I just try to follow Eleonor Roosevelt's advice: "Do one thing every day that scares you."
ApneaAddict.. Aquaholic is more like it. My swim buddies and I were laughing this morning about how addicted we are. We were landlocked for a few days recently due to rain and subsequent urban runoff and joking about how we were all so desperate and ready to check in at Aquaholic Anonymous.. 12 strokes.
Ok, then. Good to know. Now just do it. Going back tomorrow. Thanks a bunch.
ApneaAddict.. Aquaholic is more like it. My swim buddies and I were laughing this morning about how addicted we are. We were landlocked for a few days recently due to rain and subsequent urban runoff and joking about how we were all so desperate and ready to check in at Aquaholic Anonymous.. 12 strokes.
Ok, then. Good to know. Now just do it. Going back tomorrow. Thanks a bunch.
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I did some trial diving yesterday. Started a blog to share my experience and stop clogging this thread. Any feedback is appreciated, thx:
http://shakakai.blogspot.com/
http://shakakai.blogspot.com/
Attachments
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Sakina, I do not have any of the ID's needed to comment, so I'll comment here on you blog.
First off, congratulations with your first outing and experience! It's great that you too have found the freediving feeling.
I did not see any snorkel in your photo's, bring a snorkel, and see how much energy it saves you when you swim along the coast. Lifting your head all the time and interrupting your speed makes us tired very quickly. If your heart is racing before the dive, your dive will be very short. Another option would be to relax on your back before a dive, like freedivers do for competitions.
btw do not worry about your BMI, I think you've got a great Body Mind Index
First off, congratulations with your first outing and experience! It's great that you too have found the freediving feeling.
I did not see any snorkel in your photo's, bring a snorkel, and see how much energy it saves you when you swim along the coast. Lifting your head all the time and interrupting your speed makes us tired very quickly. If your heart is racing before the dive, your dive will be very short. Another option would be to relax on your back before a dive, like freedivers do for competitions.
btw do not worry about your BMI, I think you've got a great Body Mind Index
A fun read Sakina, thanks for posting. The first time, when its good, is truly wonderful.
"it s the closest to flying I could find." yes, Yes, and YES again! That is exactly what it is. When I was 3 or 4, I often dreamed of flying around the room like Peter Pan(who I'd never heard of). Loved it and was sure it wasn't a dream, it was REAL. Infuriated me when my mother insisted it was a dream. Took me a long time to fine a real life equivalent.
The 5 seconds will soon become much longer, enjoy.
Second the snorkel suggestion, allows you to burn much less energy(and stay down longer).
Freediving can be what you make it. If blowing bubbles is what's comfortable, by all means, blow some. I think you will fairly quickly find its better not, but that is entirely up to you.
If its uncomfortable to take a full breath, take less. You don't need a full breath and there are some substantial advantages to diving with less than a full lungful.
Connor
"it s the closest to flying I could find." yes, Yes, and YES again! That is exactly what it is. When I was 3 or 4, I often dreamed of flying around the room like Peter Pan(who I'd never heard of). Loved it and was sure it wasn't a dream, it was REAL. Infuriated me when my mother insisted it was a dream. Took me a long time to fine a real life equivalent.
The 5 seconds will soon become much longer, enjoy.
Second the snorkel suggestion, allows you to burn much less energy(and stay down longer).
Freediving can be what you make it. If blowing bubbles is what's comfortable, by all means, blow some. I think you will fairly quickly find its better not, but that is entirely up to you.
If its uncomfortable to take a full breath, take less. You don't need a full breath and there are some substantial advantages to diving with less than a full lungful.
Connor
Thx, Kars and Connor. The reason why I don t use a snorkel is because I have a hard time wearing stuff when I swim; cap, goggles and now a mono beside my swimsuit is all I can take. That's why I was so motivated with letting go of the wetsuit when I started OW --between 2 evils, being cold or wearing a straightjacket, I chose freezing my tail off. :/
I have a brand new Finis snorkel somewhere. I'll try it. I'll try relaxing on my back too. I must admit that being alone that day freaked me out a bit. I swim alone often but usually there s always someone; scuba ppl, standup paddlers, beach goers. But that day I was alone so I cld not totally relax.
Next I ll also practice what ApnaeAddict recommended: one arm straight and equalizing with the other hand. Gee, it's like learning to drive a car again.
I dreamed I was flying for as long as I can remember and it always felt like the real deal. Closest I came to experience the same IRL was when I scuba dove a long time ago.
I have a brand new Finis snorkel somewhere. I'll try it. I'll try relaxing on my back too. I must admit that being alone that day freaked me out a bit. I swim alone often but usually there s always someone; scuba ppl, standup paddlers, beach goers. But that day I was alone so I cld not totally relax.
Next I ll also practice what ApnaeAddict recommended: one arm straight and equalizing with the other hand. Gee, it's like learning to drive a car again.
I dreamed I was flying for as long as I can remember and it always felt like the real deal. Closest I came to experience the same IRL was when I scuba dove a long time ago.
Ok, you want to feel some flying?
Seek some soft sandy bottom.
Rest floating on your back.
Slow down your breathing.
Exhale a bit deeper, inhale slowly.
Exhale passively, turn over, equalise, dive.
To roll over and dive, lift 1 hand over the other shoulder.
Because you only take down less air, you'll sink down from the start, no need for swimming, it's only a matter of 'letting go', giving in, relaxing, enjoying the flow of water over your skin.
Yes this is me, with a video focussed on finding the mental state of flow.
Seek some soft sandy bottom.
Rest floating on your back.
Slow down your breathing.
Exhale a bit deeper, inhale slowly.
Exhale passively, turn over, equalise, dive.
To roll over and dive, lift 1 hand over the other shoulder.
Because you only take down less air, you'll sink down from the start, no need for swimming, it's only a matter of 'letting go', giving in, relaxing, enjoying the flow of water over your skin.
Yes this is me, with a video focussed on finding the mental state of flow.