A question about lined suits?

[foxfish]

Myself & Old man Dave have been discussing suits of late & we are not so sure about open cell suits.
What I mean is - we, for many years used double lined suits, nylon on the inside & the outside just like most scuba suits are today.
These suits lasted for years, I mean like 6 - 8 years & we cant remember being cold, we definitely didn't need lub to get them on & they are cheap to buy.
So what exactly are the benefits of open cell suite for the temperate temperature spearo?

 

[azapa]

Foxy, I can without doubt say that open cell, or "rubbery inside" suits are twice as warm as nylon lined.

Concrete example:
I have a cressi super comp suit that IS open cell inside, but the "farmer John" trouser part, is nylon in. This was the bit that covered my chest. I would get cold in 12 C water in one hour. Its a 7mm suit (!). I place a cressi vest, open cell inside, 1mm, under the farmer john so that now open cell contacts me over nearly all my body and can last 4 hours in the same temps.

No doubt. Don't go nylon in! Or if you do, go 2mm thicker (with all that extra lead to sink it too)

Oh, benefits: you can use a 2mm thinner suit, be just as warm, and use so much less lead that otherwise makes deepish diving a chore (on the way up

 

[spaghetti]

Foxy I'm not good at physics, but I'll re-read some old articles on the subject and try to tell exactly the scientific reason why open cell is better to resist the cold, but I'll be able to do it tomorrow (if nobody does before me).
All I can say so far is:
1) open cell inside has been scientifically demonstrated to give a better thermic insulation (why exactly? that's what i have to check in old articles I have hidden somewhere).
2) although it does actually help, tough men don't need this geek stuff to resist the cold

 

[azapa]

ok, there you go again Spago: i'm not tough AND I have a rubber fetish? Is that what you are saying?

"wicking" is one reason nylon inside is bad, it will channel and suck water in. Oh, and they MUST stink more as they retain more pee? two good reasons?

 

[ILDiver]

The open cell suits hold to the skin better and don't let as much water through. Once the lube is rinsed away near the seals it pretty much stays in place. When you take the suit off you still have a lot of lube left in the suit. Any water trapped in the suit stays warmer because it is not being flushed by the cooler water, so your body loses less heat since it is not heating the new water. Less exchange translates to warmer suit.
Another benefit then is that you can wear a thinner suit and wear less weight.

 

[foxfish]

I know all those things but I never really got cold wearing a 5mm double lined suit.
I must say I am tempted to buy a custom suit from diveskin but with the nylon lining simply because - it will last twice as long & will be far easier to put on & take off.
I am the first to admit that I don't take the best care of my kit, I have found that the slick inner of my last few suits has deteriated very quickly & I am always foggeting my lube.

 

[ILDiver]

A closed cell neoprene would be warmer than the lined and some with a titanium liner will go on without lube (like Elios, I'm not sure what they call theirs though) The big benefit is the thinner suit is less buoyant and you can wear less weight. Not as much suit to compress during the dive either.

But really, if your comfortable in what your using and you like it....Why change? go with what works. Like any other piece of equipment, it can cost $1000, but if it does not fit you or do what you need, it's not worth $1.

 

[Old Man Dave]

Well thanks for replying guys but all very predictable. Personally I have had a few suits over the years and I don't find the "new" open cell suits very good. Have had several makes and I don't find them wamer than nylon in suits. Recently i have taken to using a 5mm open cell in spearo suit for scuba. I seem to get a lot colder than my mate in a similar 5mm nylon in suit built for scuba, despite his having a front zip.

Interestingly I have a 2mm vest for wearing in the winter under my spearo suit. I actually found it colder and definitely more uncomfortable with the open cell against my body. Now I always wear it inside out with the nylon against my body and it is much warmer and more comfortable. Don't know why but it definitely is so.

Regards water flow or flushing through the suit, most scuba style lined inside suits have wrist and ankle seals. I've used these types of suits and had dry patches inside after several hours of diving. Not had that with spearo open cell suits.

Right so sounds like I am convinsed that open cell is a bit of a con. Well partly so but I was looking for some conformation. Manufactureres certainly must like tham as they must sell loads, after all the bloody things only last 5 minutes of hard use.

Dave

 

[ILDiver]

I really don't find them a Con. I have a Henderson 5mm nylon lined and I have used several others. I dove in Lake Michigan in 52 degree F water Scuba and freediving with a hood and gloves and was cold from the moment I entered the water. I toughed it out for an hour each. The freediving/spearfishing I would get out and warm back up periodically.

5mm OMER open cell suit. It's a stock suit and it does not fit the best in all parts of my body, but for the most part it fits. I can spend an hour easy in 32 degree water. It's not my body that gets cold. It's my hands or me feet. I've ordered open cell socks and gloves for them too.

If you have a good fitting nylon lined suit that stays semi-dry, then use it. I've found the Nylon suits stay warmer with scuba gear helping to restrict the water exchange. But after wearing my 3mm open cell with scuba and getting below the thermalcline, I'm hooked on open cell, it's much warmer.

 

[azapa]

mart, dave, sorry we are not saying anything new here. What were you expecting to hear?

If you are happy/warm in a 5mm double lined, there are but two choices:
- keep using what you like
- switch to a 3mm open cell inside and ditch half your lead.

The second will only become worth it bellow 10m down.

have fun!

BTW my open cell inside has lasted a year of 8x per month dives. But it only cost 300U$ to start with. I feel it to be a good buy.

 

[Old Man Dave]

Well there are quite a few factors involved in the efficiency of wet suits. I was looking for a few views that might lend credence to what I have found.

The water temp, the depth, the style and material used for the suit must effect performance. I don't go beyond 9metres on breathhold and don't dive in water colder than 8c. Most of the time I do max 2 hours in 14C during the summer and 8c for 1 hour in winter.

I think MTM makes a difference. I hear that a MTM Elios is a different aminal compared to ordinary suits. Even if open cell was warmer I dislike the need for lubricant and the extra care you need with these suits. A double lined suit is tough as old boots and lasts years but most important you can abuse them. Chuck them in the back of the van and use them whenever you need at short notice. I dive a lot and I need a reliable suit.

I fancy a MTM 5mm Diveskin, double lined (cammo out), long johns, no-zip hood attached jacket, ankle and wrist seals, elbow and knee patches plus loading pad. Would love to find someone with such a suit and get their opinion.

Thanks anyway for your imput and I'm not ignoring your opinions just looking for all viewpoints.

Dave

 

[cdavis]

Interesting and highly divergent views from some good divers, interesting.

Having had a bunch of nylon in scuba suits, including a very good 5 mil custom, I can definitely state that, for me, a 3 mil Elios is far far warmer, absolutely no comparison.
So, why do some folks find nylon in suits to be as warm or warmer. Is there some factor we aren't seeing?? Would it be possible to make a custom, nylon in, suit with seals that prevent water ingress and/or other featues to the point that they would be as warm?

Please, keep the ideas coming.

Connor

 

[cdavis]

Azapa, you got the stink business wrong. The kind of scuba suits I'm used to never stink. In fact, the first time I read about stinky suits on this forum, I'd been diving 30 years and had never even heard of a significant stinky problem. It sounded so improbable that I was sure somebody was pulling my leg.

The reason is scuba suits I was familiar with, even the best custom ones, flush so much that nothing stays around long enough to stink.

Connor

 

[chrismar]

The reason spearo suits are colder when you're on scuba is they compress at depth.

The rubber used in spearo suits is much softer, making it adhere better, more flexible and more comfortable than the kind used in a scuba suit. It also quarters the lifespan; even worse if you use it for scuba too. A big breath though in a 7mm close-fitting scuba suit is functionally impossible.

If you prefer nylon in-out suits, go for it. The trade-off is being able to drop 2mm of neoprene off while staying warm and comfortable, versus having to buy suits more often.

 

[azapa]

Connor, kudos again. Bigger flush - better pee pee removal.

My suit is the opposite: no flush. Booties and asparagus? Don't want to go there.

 

[kmo]

I've just swapped from a double-lined suit to an open cell and the best thing for me was the flexibility you get without the extra nylon. I hate lubing it up in winter though, it isn't the best way to start a dive!

 

[foxfish]

I can just about remember diving in my home made shorty about 40 years ago, then came a home made one piece when I was about 12 years old. My brothers made these suits for me, they were made from unlined neoprene & we used talcum powder to get them on. Unfortunately they fell to bits quite quickly as well.
Next came a two piece toweling lined suit, 7mm I think, that one lasted about 10 years. Of course these were the days of plenty & the need to dive deep or even stay in the water for any length of time was unnecessary!
Next was a proper spearo suit, 5mm long johns & 5mm jacket still with a full length zip up the front & nylon lined but with seals around the neck & ankles & sleeves. That one lasted a long time, I used it to surf as well & compared to my mates one piece surf suits it was super warm.
Then, about 15 years ago I bought my best suit so far, it was a second skin custom made one piece 5mm surf suit. I had a loading pad fitted & two external pockets, the suit was silver allover & had water tight seals everywhere. My silver suit was superb, lined on the inside but very dry & warm however it was a pain to climb in & had a short back zip that was difficult to get at.
Since then I have had open cell suits, maybe my mind is blurred & I was cold, uncomfortable & used huge amounts of lead but I seem to remember feeling cozy & safe in my old lined suits!
My present open cell suit has lasted two seasons but is now pretty much knackered & I have been wearing a vest underneath to keep warm for the last few dives.

 

[Lazuli]

Interesting thread. I purchased an Elios smoothskin/nylon wetsuit off one of the Wisconsin bad boys on this here forum (you know who you are!!). Its a 5mm Heiwa rubber reversable suit and on my first trial dives with it I wore it nylon lining in. In English waters in August-September I nearly expired from heat exhaustion on a two hour snorkel - and the sun wasn't even shining. I had to let water into the suit to cool myself down! I have not needed to wear it rubber side in yet.

 

[ILDiver]

I know the suit you are talking about Lazuli. I thought he would have posted here by now...

 

[billieball]

As a technical diver, I would wear either a drysuit with thermal underclothes...or a 3mm suit w/5mm hooded vest...for cold gulf/cavern/spring diving. When I started freediving, I had an open-cell inside/neoprene outside suit made from Oceaner. It keeps me WAY warmer when in the springs (which are a constant 67 degrees F). Haven't tried it in much colder water, would probably stick with a dry suit if scuba...and don't really have colder water around here worth freediving in...springs are it. One major advantage in colder water that the open-cell suit has: IT HOLDS URINE AGAINST YOUR BODY FOR A LONG TIME...AND KEEPS IT VERY WARM. It's wonderful to be able to keep yourself nice and comfy without the flushing a normal suit would do...