Advantages of FRC diving?

[turtle]

FRC diving feels a lot more natural than big inhale diving in that you need less/no weights, you get a nice sense of blood shift & you can concentrate on equalising etc. Also makes you a lot more manoeuvrable in the shallows for snorkelling around.

Had some odd experiences with it though, including feeling sort of 'blocked' in the chest around 10/15metres. This feeling came on after frc diving for a month or so & going deep just felt 'wrong' all of a sudden, including on full lungs. Very frustrating as i couldn't work out why it happened & my max was 30m frc before & anything around 15m frc was super comfortable ie. could get minute or two bottom time quite happily. Difficult imagining doing my inhale pbs on frc though :-( !

Pool diving was pretty interesting, doing hangs then waiting for contractions & going for max no fins. Not enjoyable, but then again are dynamics ever enjoyable?? Got to about 80% of my max WITH fins on inhale, but not very psyched for pool stuff so not good examples probably.

I always kind of wonder if a sort of middle line between frc and inhale diving wouldn't yield good results, or if it would just give you the worst of both worlds...?

Fred - soon splashing about again

 

[TampaBrian]

can I FTC breath hold in shallows or dry and achieve better results or safer practices than with no breath up and one good single attempt. There was a lot of talk 6 months ago about no breath up holds.

 

[laminar]

A recommendation for those of you trying FRC as something new:

Pick an "easy" depth (say 8-14m) in which you don't strain to equalize and one that you know you can surface from fairly quickly if you misjudge your air.

Find a lung volume/ballast combination that allows you to sink after 1-2 gentle dolphin kicks or arm pulls. Try to do these as relaxed as possible.

The main thing to relearn is your energy expenditure on the way down. Spend weeks on this, at least. If you can dive down a slope and crawl along the bottom with your fingers, that's ideal.

Use frenzel (learn it if you can't). If you repeat the SAME depth over and over again on FRC you should find that your ability to equalize without tension or effort will improve. Ideally, you would avoid any packing for statics or any other discipline during this period (although that is entirely up to you - I would).

You may experience a variety of sensations at this shallow depth. In my opinion you should allow for enough time to:
-"teach" your body to blood shift earlier and earlier by diving FRC all the time
-allow for your RV to get smaller gradually over time (negatives not necessary for this purpose)
-practice energy conservationn with efficient technique (very important)
-learn new sensations in lungs and body on FRC (what does an urge to breathe feel like and mean when you've made no effort to descend?)
-avoid pushing the time to contractions in the beginning. Aim to prolong your time without contractions (use the same natural breathing pattern every time- that's vital) by using less energy during your dive.

It can take a long time to recalibrate your diving style to FRC. The first thing you may notice is that doing any work at depth burns your oxygen very fast. That defeats the benefits of FRC. Making the descent similar to static apnea is the secret that allows the body to blood shift to its fullest and make the ascent as anaerobic as possible. If you move around and waste energy, you won't feel like going deep is possible.

After a while, IMHO, the blood shift trumps everything else, but that takes time. In the Bahamas I was providing primary safety freedives on FRC to 20m. I would NOT have done that a year ago. The blood shift is strong enough that I could sprint down and then wait for a long time and still have air left to provide good safety. On Dave's super long dive (the 4 minute dive), I think my total dive time was 1'45-2'00". I had one or two contractions in the last five metres. Two or three years ago, when I was first trying FRC, I would have aborted at 50 seconds or so because it just hadn't become familiar to me and I hadn't optimized my technique. The comp safety dives were simply extended recreational dives. When I dive recreationally I rarely experience contractions (that's my safety margin). In a competition setting, with two secondary safety divers (like Simon!) to back me up, I can endure another 20-40 seconds of discomfort for the sake of the athlete coming up. Nice to know that recreational dive practices can prepare you for more demanding dives.

In fact, after two and a half (or three, I'm not sure) years of FRC recreational diving and no competitive dives or training, I was able to achieve some better than expected distances in the pool at the start of a training cycle. I've done no static breath holds or tables or specific training. What I think makes the difference is that my body has become used to being at pressures greater than atmospheric from the very beginning of the dive (even when you are breathing at the surface, for example). There's no time when my lung volume exerts a pressure on the heart/lungs/etc that is greater than the water (ie. packing). So the blood shift happens faster and faster.

Unless you're already in great shape, have a strong blood shift, and can adjust your technique quickly, you should allow for a year to work on FRC. It's totally worth it!

Pete

 

[laminar]

Forgot to mention that once you become adept at equalizing at the shallow depth with Frenzel, your Frenzel limit will decrease. Obviously, the mouthfill is the most efficient and fail-safe way to equalize on FRC, but it is possible with enough time to adjust gradually to frenzel quite deep without a mouth fill.

 

[laminar]

Another small thing: Diving twice a week during this phase will really accelerate your progress, even if you don't do many dives in a session. Once a week will help, but it won't be nearly as beneficial in the long term.

 

[TampaBrian]

i appreciate the info, but what about those of us just looking do be able to have longer holds out of water. FRC, Tables, or No Breath-up Holds?
Anxious to restart training soon but not until I have a good idea of what i should do for only out of water or surface holds. I have a very simple goal of 5 minutes, 6 tops out of water. My PB is 4:00 out of water and that was when i was doing breath ups and tables and all that non lasting stuff.
Any info is appreciated.
-Brian

 

[Jon]

Peter,

My question is on just how big of an exhale you do when diving this way.

While playing around with this all winter, in shallow water, I felt the blood shift after a single dive, or two at the most, and really liked how easy the decent was- plus, I was able to dump a full 10 pounds off of my winter weight belt.

I found my self taking a big breath, exhaling completely, and then diving. Re-reading through many of these posts it sounds like other divers are taking some type of partial inhale before they dive- which would extend both my depth and bottom time.

So, how big an inhale/exhale do you take before decent?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[laminar]

i appreciate the info, but what about those of us just looking do be able to have longer holds out of water. FRC, Tables, or No Breath-up Holds?
Anxious to restart training soon but not until I have a good idea of what i should do for only out of water or surface holds. I have a very simple goal of 5 minutes, 6 tops out of water. My PB is 4:00 out of water and that was when i was doing breath ups and tables and all that non lasting stuff.
Any info is appreciated.
-Brian

Hi Brian,

I'm not sure I understand. You want to be able to hold your breath for longer out of the water? Or do you mean how to cross training because of a lack of depth?

Tell us more about your situation and training - do you prefer to hold your breath dry rather than wet?

Pete

 

[laminar]

Peter,

My question is on just how big of an exhale you do when diving this way.

While playing around with this all winter, in shallow water, I felt the blood shift after a single dive, or two at the most, and really liked how easy the decent was- plus, I was able to dump a full 10 pounds off of my winter weight belt.

I found my self taking a big breath, exhaling completely, and then diving. Re-reading through many of these posts it sounds like other divers are taking some type of partial inhale before they dive- which would extend both my depth and bottom time.

So, how big an inhale/exhale do you take before decent?

Thanks,

Jon

Obviously, how much you exhale is subjective. And there are other factors like body composition (inherent buoyancy) and wetsuit thickness/ballast to take into account. There's definitely an advantage to being slim and not wearing a suit when it comes to FRC diving, but it is not essential. Consider that I've done most of my recreational diving in the last year and a bit in a 6.5mm/5mm combo without fins. And usually with a camera.

I also think that the specific lung volume is not crucial and that there is a range - this range gets fairly narrow with experience.

So sit comfortably in a chair or lie down. Breathe softly through your nose. Relax your breath so that your tidal volume becomes apparent. Your diaphragm should barely move only slight movements in your lower diaphragm. Definitely do not chest breathe here. This is close to your final lung volume.

Now take a deep breath through your nose again and simply relax your diaphragm completely (it will feel like a downward shrug of your shoulders).

This could be your final lung volume.

Here's where you experiment. After the inhale/exhale-shrug, inhale slightly - barely a sip. I would describe it as a momentary flaring of the nostrils that allows some air into the lungs.

Through a snorkel or through your mouth, this would be a very small sip. The sip can vary in quantity. Sometimes I will actually sip air and let it into my lungs and other times I will primarily fill my mouth up with as much air as can fit (ie. for a shallower dive or a deep line dive).

The key with this type of diving is that the final amount of air (within the tidal volume range) doesn't make much of a difference in the dive time/depth/02 supply. Dive response is the key. But taking too much air in will make the descent harder and retard the dive response. There may be times when that's a trade off to use.

I would say that if you are exhaling fully and going down, that it too little air in your lungs. The guiding principle for me is that FRC should feel comfortable. FRC is a misleading term. In fact, I would like to rename FRC diving as something else. I've written a new term down that I liked long ago, but now I can't remember it! :duh

FRC should feel like a gentle stretch at first. That's why I recommend sticking to shallow depths in the beginning. Because then you can really learn to refine and tune your lung volume.

Hope that helps.

Pete

 

[TampaBrian]

My pool goes to 8 feet, i'm not interested in diving any deeper either. I just want to increase my breath holding ability for recreational purposes. not interested in dynamic or anything, so what would everyone recommend for this? 6 months ago i could hit 4:00 however, i stopped training with tables because its just too cumbersome. Would FRC be better or static with no warmup on one 80% breath? OR..would i be better off just sticking to the tables?

 

[laminar]

My pool goes to 8 feet, i'm not interested in diving any deeper either. I just want to increase my breath holding ability for recreational purposes. not interested in dynamic or anything, so what would everyone recommend for this? 6 months ago i could hit 4:00 however, i stopped training with tables because its just too cumbersome. Would FRC be better or static with no warmup on one 80% breath? OR..would i be better off just sticking to the tables?

Where do you dive recreationally? What depths, time, etc... Spearo or just for fun?

Dry breath hold training is in my view a separate discipline all together. Many things change in the water. In my view, always best to train in the water.

If you prefer dry training, then perhaps apnea walking, hiking or cycling (on a stationary bike) would be a better option than dry statics or tables. I haven't done dry breath holds for training in many years. Search this site for posts on those options (and articles, too) as there's been a lot written and discussed on the subject.

 

[TampaBrian]

i've been reading old posts for days, hours at a time...
i'm interested in the idea of fewer or no contractions, but i suppose i would need the diving reflex for that. Let me ask you this, if I start diving frc and only to 8 feet, will it do anything with the DR? Training tables i could do 4:00 but I hated the contractions...if I train FRC, can i train my body to get a relatively quick DR in 8 feet of water? Im no longer interested in apnea walking, but more really shallow or even dry, avoiding tables, I guess im just hoping i can frc train out of water and get a DR out of it, but..probably not eh?! I dive in a pool at home, 8 feet deep, used to pull 4 minutes out of water, could never get far in the water. I suppose just for fun, no spearo. Thanks for your replies by the way.
-Brian

 

[salibandy]

I think he means entertainment purposes.

 

[TampaBrian]

I think he means entertainment purposes.

Now that my friend, sounds more like an insult.

The truth is, I have a very bad back, which causes all of my muscles to tense up, including my diaphragm. The only relief I've had, allowing me to breath normally, sneeze without feeling like someone stabbed me in the back, yawn fully, etc., Is from the ability to be able to 1. Relax as much as freediving suggests, and 2. Exercize my diapragm. I live day in and day out with an intense amount of pain that no doctor or medicine can fix.
I'm not asking for a pity party, but i didn't ask to be insulted either so here's the truth.

I'm just looking for a less intense form or practice. The contractions I have seem to conflict with the progress I make holding my breath. Before, I was on a cycle of practicing tables for 5 days with 2 days of rest. Having contractions later and later in the hold has allowed my body to relax longer with a stretched diaphragm before the contractions conflicted.

My main interest was sparked from a post titled: "Static with no warm-up"
Then I heard about FRC. So, what I really want to know is: With practice, what is the best way to do a breathhold to build yourself up for longer holds, with less contractions? FRC sounds great but i wouldn't be stretching my diaphragm, where as static with no warm-up is still a deep breath and would. Which of these, if not both, would better allow fewer contractions over time?

I was just hoping to find some experienced opinions on the topic. If you don't mind, what are your suggestions on this? I'm not sure where else to go, being that my practice is not standard and i guess for medical reasons, i'm not likely to find other people using this method, nor a doctor who deals with back pain and breath holds at the same time. I respect everyone here and read these forums on the edge of my seat. I was just hoping to fit in with you, but with a different objective.

As for it being for entertainment purposes...the last time i held my breath out of water for that purpose was at about 12 years of age where my friends and i would see who could do it longer. We would reach 30 seconds and try and make it look like we were still holding while sneaking a bit of air. Never fooled anyone

Thanks for listening and I hope you can help me out a bit.
-Brian

 

[turtle]

Hi Brian,

Wouldn't bother with frc if you are not really going to be doing dynamics or going deep & all you are looking for are increased breath hold times.

Sorry to sound discouraging, but i don't think it'll be your best option.

f

ps. can see where salibandy's comment comes from, as having no interest in depth or even dynamics is very unusual on this forum. Hope your back condition improves.

 

[salibandy]

Apologies Brian, I meant you no harm. I merely assumed you were doing for party tricks. I should not have assumed at all.

Static without warmup will not help you, as it makes your contractions come earlier, though they are more tolerable.

EDIT: If you want your dive reflex to kick in, try immersing your face in cold water, preferably your eyes as well. Meaning, don't wear goggles.

 

[trux]

Brian, I am not sure if I understand well that you need to hold your breath for possibly long periods of time because it gives you some relief from the back pain. If it is so, and if you do it only dry, then probably the easiest way to delay the contractions would be hyperventilating prior the breath-hold. Doing it with oxygen would allow possibly even longer apneas, but it bears some additional risks, so you probably don't want to go there.

Normally I would not advise hyperventilating, and especially not if you hold the breath under water, but if it is used as a form of medical relief and only dry, then the disadvantages of hyperventilation are not that bad.

 

[Fondueset]

Brian,

If you are using apnea for pain relief it may be the benefits you are realizing result more from focus on breathing and deep relaxation. If so it may be worth your while to look into pranayama and/or Qigong.

 

[Shpongle]

With no relation maybe to freediving, I would suggest a Vipassana Course

Vipassana Meditation Website

It is offered world wide, for free. you are able to donate but only after the first course - if you find that it helped you.

Good day :friday

 

[TampaBrian]

wow, thanks for your replies. So many new avenues i've never heard of. The cold water thing sounds interesting, would i have to be entirely emersed, or do you think perhaps a large bowl of cold water could help? Sounds dumb i know.. As for hyperventilating out of water, do you think thats still safe? Isn't a BO out of water still a bad bad thing, or not so much?