Advice on hypoxic apnea walk training following hyperventilation

[baiyoke]

Hi DB.

I would like your advice and opinion, good and bad, about this new training I've picked up. I'll try to keep it simple. I couldn't find anything doing search that answers my questions (as usual !?!).

I do apneawalk 4-5 times a week, for about 25 minutes. It may seems like a lot, but it's actually quite relaxing (sort of) because it's when I'm taking the dog for a walk late evening. This is my new thing:

I hyperventilate walking slowly - big time. App. 12-35 purges (takes about 1 or 1½ minute). I try to hyperventilate excessively, but just cannot get dizzy, gets tired of it, and then I exhale completely, hold my breath and keep on walking. After some time I feel different... likely getting hypoxic (unless it's diverespons, but it feels different). Then I sip a little bit air and hold again, keep on walking, until getting that feeling again, sip a little again, hold, sip, hold..... I continue until full and I need to abort the breathhold.

My idea is that maybe I can train my hypoxic tolerance, boost my haemoglobin or similar. I can breathhold to blackout, had my first (and last I hope) in january in a competition. My thought is I need time in hypoxic state, and this could be one way.

Another point of this: If I did similar training without HV I would burn out in a week. After one no-warmup walk I'm really lactic for the rest of the walk. This way I can go on a long time.

The dangers are of course obvious: I could BO, crack my skull open, lose the dog, etc. But for some odd reason I feel in control, and I've probably done 20-25 walks this way. I should probably add that I can walk just as far as with a regular "full lung without HV to hypoxic feeling". The gradual O2 intake and early DR probably gives some distance, but still... it's a bit weird...

Any thoughts on this (crazy) way of doing it? Health risks? Benefits? Other?

Thanks

 

[baiyoke]

Perhaps I should clarify with some more specific questions to generate some input Pick a question and give it a shot:

1) From a hypoxia-only perspective is this a safe way of training, or could it be a healt-risk to get "very hypoxic" 20 times a week (IF that is what's happening)?

2) People can BO from HV alone despite full O2 saturation (Bohr effect + narrowing blodvessels in brain). Do you think/know if hypoxia-due-to-HV can create the same adaptation as "normal" hypoxia?

3) Is it really possible to increase the hypoxic tolerance through "Hypoxic training" like near-max-dives/walks? A little research on google seems to leave that question unanswered...


Btw found some related topics, allthough not answering my questions...

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/hypoxic-training.68109/

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/odd-static-training-exercise.90706/

 

[cdavis]

Interesting stuff, baiyoke, new thinking.

If I'm interpreting this right, you are putting two opposites together to get at hypoxia training without the extreme discomfort from excess c02. 1.5 minutes of heavy HV clears out your arterial circulation, some of your venus circulation and is working on clearing c02 from body fluids, pretty thorough clean out. Start the hold then and you have considerably reduced your max breath hold, DR will start late, but you are adding the "sip-hold-sip' strategy that provides enough 02 to stay conscious as c02 builds up, DR kicks in. End result, you stay hypoxic longer without being so uncomfortable or getting so lactic. Do I have that right?

Seems like a fine line between hypoxic and BO.

Can't answer your questions, now we really need Efattah.

 

[growingupninja]

If your intention is to boost EPO to raise hematocrit you probably get much less benefit since it sounds like your muscles are not getting starved for
O2. Skeletal muscles need to be hypoxic for max EPO release, and it is a difference of several orders of magnitude. Studied in rats and cyclists.

 

[baiyoke]

Yes cdavis that is a good description of the theory behind

Growingupninja why do you think muscles don't starve? If hypoxic in brain most of the time isn't it likely that muscles also starve.

yesterday on my first walk I walked longer than than I've done in three months.... And my ARMS got really lactic as well as legs (although I did actually do weight training earlier in the day, wich makes me much more lactic sensitive). That implies that muscles starve I would say.

Thanks for input btw

 

[growingupninja]

Initially you described the exercise as producing very little lactic sensation. That would indicate that the muscles are recieving O2. Depending on who you ask, CO2 is also a trigger to vasoconstriction, so HV would be delaying to onset.

Your muscles tolerate far more hypoxia than brain.

 

[baiyoke]

Hmm... Yes, you are right about that...

I guess I have not been explicit about what kind of hypoxic tolerance I had in mind, but I now see that it can be split in at least two subgenres: Muscles and brain.

I was mostly thinking about the "brain-hypoxic tolerance". The "blackout tolerance". That's what I was thinking I could somehow train, but also asking: Is it possible to train THAT tolerance?

 

[cdavis]

Very interesting stuff the think about. Seems to me that baiyoke's approach might work. Knock off some of the c02 urge and the sip-hold-sip stategy should result in hypoxia with less discomfort. He wouldn't feel it so much in the muscles,but maybe that is the point. As Ninja says, muscles can take more than the brain. Could this approach be better at targeting hypoxia to the brain? With less co2, the bohr effect would be less powerful, making brain hypoxia practically worse.