Advice please

[atomichaggis]

Burying fish on mountain camping trips is fairly common practice. I've never tried it yet but all those folks can't be wrong.

Pastor,
Sure fish feel something but not pain as we know it. they wouldn't eat hardback crabs otherwise.

 

[Pastor]

I was always told it was a flight reflex when the felt themselves being restricted (that sort of contradicts itself!) by the shaft or line that caused them to go ballistic

 

[atomichaggis]

They go ape when they are tangled in line or nets too... they know they are in trouble and their instinct is to escape. Scientific studies have shown that they do have feeling and lots of it but we shouldn't cast them in our own dimensions. Whatever pain or distress they may experience, it isn't as we humans do.
Sharks carry on feeding when hooked and Cod carry on feeding with crabs clamping down on them, not to mention all the spikey fish they eat... either would put me off my dinner.
Still best to kill em as quickly as possible to minimise whatever suffering they may experience but not worth worrying about it... bleeding works just as well after braining em.

 

[Agar4Life]

I personally believe that they do feel pain, but not with the emotional connection that humans and other higher organisms do.
Thus it is hard to say whether it is cruel.

But, who wants to leave it to chance.
When fish evolve to become our masters, I do not want to be tortured for some misdeed to a seabass.

 

[Panthalassia]

Interesting preservation technique you got there mate, you should add that to the thread in the cooking section.
The second part of your post bugs me a bit though. Isnt our aim as spearfisherman to fish selectively yet humanely? If you caught them on line and used a keepnet Id be fine with that but keeping speared fish alive on a line (Im presuming this is on a stringer or similar method to keep them from tearing off) is just not cool in my book :rcard
Please kill your fish in the future and keep it on ice or in a camping fridge if your away from home for a couple of days. Heck according to you you dont even need a fridge so I dont see the point in keeping fish alive after theyve been speared in this method.

Props to you deep thinker. I think that we spearos have a sort of an ethical responsibility to be as humane as possible (I'm sure there are plenty out there who would disagree, I'm not trying to start a debate about it):naughty. But I think we are more connected to our prey.

That said, I think the question about bleeding/degilling vs. braining first is a great one. My background in biology and physiology would suggest that the best way to go about this would be to brain then cut the gills out. The heart should indeed keep pumping after the brain is dead. Additionally, if done in the water I think that will help the bleeding process. Being in the water will stop the blood from clotting at the site of injury and at the cut gills, allowing bleeding to occur until complete exsanguination.

Certainly bleeding before freezing/storing is the way to go and should be one of the first things. Just like with cattle/deer etc. that are hung upside down and bled before carving. If not, urea (ammonia compound) builds up and causes poor flavor. Also, unless the animal dies immediately, stress hormones accumulate and make the meat tougher and less tasty. This is why they knock cows unconscious before bleeding them out (so their adrenal glands don't release stress hormones) and why they do all this away from the other animals (because the other animals pick up on the fear and spoil their own meat before slaughter). My $0.02.

 

[Panthalassia]

I personally believe that they do feel pain, but not with the emotional connection that humans and other higher organisms do.
Thus it is hard to say whether it is cruel.

But, who wants to leave it to chance.
When fish evolve to become our masters, I do not want to be tortured for some misdeed to a seabass.

Ha ha, that's funny. Reminds me of movie quote "If you were an alien and you saw one animal walking around taking a dump (dog), and another walking behind it scooping it up (human), who would you think was in charge?"

On a more serious note, biologically speaking there is a difference between pain and suffering, however when it comes to policy of humane treatment of animals (as with slaughter houses, research laboratories, zoos, etc.) there is a considerable amount of regulation and MANY laws exactly for the sake of being "humane". Since you guys mention it, there is a HUGE push right now in the commercial (fishing), scientific, and aquarium/oceanarium businesses to consider fish as able to experience pain AND suffering, and to reconsider humane practices for fish/sea life. Traditionally people have treated fish like inanimate objects, subjecting them to horrible practices (i.e. suffocating to death, bleeding to death, etc.) and never considering them as living things able to experience pain and suffering. This is a VERY big issue in the business of animal handling and will likely not go away any time soon. IMO, since we have the knowledge to dispatch our prey quickly and since it seems to favor better tasting meat, it seems unnecessary to prolong their suffering.

 

[naiad]

Sharks carry on feeding when hooked and Cod carry on feeding with crabs clamping down on them, not to mention all the spikey fish they eat... either would put me off my dinner.

Not sure that proves that they don't feel pain, as the mouth may be a particularly tough and insensitive part. When I cleaned the plastic tub that my fish were living in, I scrubbed off the algae, which were so gritty and abrasive that my fingernails were soon worn short. The fish graze on this algae all day, using their lips to remove it from surfaces. This probably is not painful, because their lips are so tough. Maybe even spikes and claws are unable to do much damage, and parts of the mouth may have few nerve endings.

Reminds me of movie quote "If you were an alien and you saw one animal walking around taking a dump (dog), and another walking behind it scooping it up (human), who would you think was in charge?"

roflroflrofl
True.

 

[Agar4Life]

Agreed, Panthalassia

I am a masters student in marine biology and there are all sorts of restrictions on working with and testing on fish. Basically if it has a backbone, you need a licence.

A lot of debate about fish pain. They have a limited nervous system at best.
However, we still do not know enough about their consciousness to act without conscience (see what i did there).

 

[tribs]

Agreed, Panthalassia

I am a masters student in marine biology and there are all sorts of restrictions on working with and testing on fish. Basically if it has a backbone, you need a licence.

A lot of debate about fish pain. They have a limited nervous system at best.
However, we still do not know enough about their consciousness to act without conscience (see what i did there).

Clever!!!! Its a slow crowd so i'll clap!!!

 

[Panthalassia]

Clever!!!! Its a slow crowd so i'll clap!!!

Hey tribs,

We may not be rocket surgeons, but we do OK. The way I see it, we're talking about fish feelings...we all deserve a round of applause...rofl

Agar, saw what you did and can appreciate it, simple minded as it was...rofl
But really, you'd think we can progress. As my old boss used to say "even a planarian can learn"...

Seriously though, seems a little simple-minded to assume only warm blooded animals feel pain/suffering. After all, the good old tunas have parts that are warm blooded (i.e. red meat), so where do we draw the line?

 

[Panthalassia]

They go ape when they are tangled in line or nets too... they know they are in trouble and their instinct is to escape. Scientific studies have shown that they do have feeling and lots of it but we shouldn't cast them in our own dimensions. Whatever pain or distress they may experience, it isn't as we humans do.
Sharks carry on feeding when hooked and Cod carry on feeding with crabs clamping down on them, not to mention all the spikey fish they eat... either would put me off my dinner.
Still best to kill em as quickly as possible to minimise whatever suffering they may experience but not worth worrying about it... bleeding works just as well after braining em.

Dolphins are notorious for going nuts when hitting a net. Some species will struggle so hard, they break the back of their skull with their neck bones. Actually force the wings (transverse processes) of their cervical vertebrae into the back of their skull. Not convinced it's so much pain, as it is the stress of restraint in that case. There is a whole science for livestock transport that studies the effects of restraint and methods for avoiding deleterious side effects of the stress of transport and restraint. With respect to a fish being penetrated by a spear, I presume it's a combination of pain and restraint stress. The initial "crazy" reaction is likely pain induced, and then once the endorphins/opioids kick in, likely a restraint response. We could really use an anesthesiologist right about now...this is NOT my area of expertise. Guess that means I should shut my pie hole...:fridaySorry, got a few in me and starting to ramble...

 

[atomichaggis]

Not sure that proves that they don't feel pain, as the mouth may be a particularly tough and insensitive part. When I cleaned the plastic tub that my fish were living in, I scrubbed off the algae, which were so gritty and abrasive that my fingernails were soon worn short. The fish graze on this algae all day, using their lips to remove it from surfaces. This probably is not painful, because their lips are so tough. Maybe even spikes and claws are unable to do much damage, and parts of the mouth may have few nerve endings.
roflroflrofl
True.

They swallow spikey fish and hardback crabs too tho.

 

[atomichaggis]

Dolphins are notorious for going nuts when hitting a net. Some species will struggle so hard, they break the back of their skull with their neck bones. Actually force the wings (transverse processes) of their cervical vertebrae into the back of their skull. Not convinced it's so much pain, as it is the stress of restraint in that case. There is a whole science for livestock transport that studies the effects of restraint and methods for avoiding deleterious side effects of the stress of transport and restraint. With respect to a fish being penetrated by a spear, I presume it's a combination of pain and restraint stress. The initial "crazy" reaction is likely pain induced, and then once the endorphins/opioids kick in, likely a restraint response. We could really use an anesthesiologist right about now...this is NOT my area of expertise. Guess that means I should shut my pie hole...:fridaySorry, got a few in me and starting to ramble...

sounds convincing enough to me... still gonna be hard to prove anything unless we can walk a mile in their... um... fins.

 

[naiad]

They swallow spikey fish and hardback crabs too tho.

Still not likely that they are doing much damage. Some species like the Wolf-fish have a reinforced mouth and throat to cope with sea urchins and crabs. There must be something (probably pain) that stops them from causing serious injury to themselves. Injuries to the mouth can become infected, which can be fatal, or result in permanent deformity.

Some parts, like the 'webbing' of the fins and sides of the mouth, are probably not sensitive. They also usually heal fast and without scarring, so there is not much reason for the fish to take care of them.

 

[Agar4Life]

Apparently the loss of a scale is quite a major injury to a fish.

 

[atomichaggis]

Still not likely that they are doing much damage. Some species like the Wolf-fish have a reinforced mouth and throat to cope with sea urchins and crabs. There must be something (probably pain) that stops them from causing serious injury to themselves. Injuries to the mouth can become infected, which can be fatal, or result in permanent deformity.

Some parts, like the 'webbing' of the fins and sides of the mouth, are probably not sensitive. They also usually heal fast and without scarring, so there is not much reason for the fish to take care of them.

Which is in line with my original statement... they probably feel pain but not as we know it. I'm not in the 'fish don't feel' camp.

P.S. the wolffish's is a tank, it's mouth is made of cartilage that constantly regenerates so any damage is temporary. I've taken them apart... fascinating stuff, both uper and lower jaw are both made of 2 seperate parts of cartilage as are the plates beyond. Their skin is reputedly the second strongest in the animal kingdom too.

 

[atomichaggis]

Apparently the loss of a scale is quite a major injury to a fish.

Only those wimpy freshwater ones... I've caught fish with as much as a 3rd of their body bitten off that have healed and are doing just fine.

 

[naiad]

Some of the freshwater ones are pretty tough too. I have some which have lost scales in the past and grown them back. One had a small 'bite' taken out of its back, which took off the scales, skin and tissue underneath. I never knew what caused the injury, but within a day the skin had covered it, and after a couple of weeks the scales grew back the same as before. Another had a deep cut along its side, which was partly healed when I noticed it. Again it did not even leave a scar.

One which I found in a wildlife pond had lost the tips of its extremely long tail, leaving it with a still very long tail. As the tail healed, black markings appeared at the tips, because new skin is often black in goldfish. The fish saw this and apparently thought it was some kind of food, as it started swimming in tight circles, chasing its own tail.

 

[Panthalassia]

sounds convincing enough to me... still gonna be hard to prove anything unless we can walk a mile in their... um... fins.

Yeah, admittedly it's all speculation...

Atomic, I presume the correct phrase would be "SWIM a mile in their fins" :t

As far as crazy looking fish are concerned, have you seen the skeleton of a monk fish? Crazy stuff. It looks the the beast from "Aliens", that has the telescoping mouth which opens up to reveal another telescoping mouth. Same deal with the monk fish skeleton. It looks like there are 4 or 5 sets of mouths, one inside the next. CRAZY UGLY but fascinating. They look like modified gill arches or something.
Also has a bioluminescent lure hanging in front of it's head, like the deep sea angler fish.

 

[Agar4Life]

They look like modified gill arches or something.

That's pretty close to how jaws did evolve.