Ahhh...Apnea Sensations

[Lehmann108]

Okay, this might sound a little strange. Using the tables I'm up to a 3:15 static breath hold. A couple of things I've noticed. People talk about contractions here, but I've never had one. One thing I do have that I haven't seen anybody mention is toward the end of a long breath hold, as the CO2 builds-up, I start to have orgasm like sensations right above my pubic bone (2nd chakra for you yogi types). It made me realize why some people choke themselves while having sex (never done it, just heard about it!!) I'm sure others have had this experience, haven't you?

 

[Morg]

I run into things like that as well.. I get a strange feeling around that area. I always think that I have to piss when ever I get that feeling. The feeling went away after 10-15 seconds thou .

 

[lungfish]

I think this is interesting though I haven't experienced it myself...nor do I need to. The interesting part is how your mind and body relate to each other at certain points during apnea. The mammalian diving reflex is an altered physical and psychological state.... if you haven't initiated it prior to your tables, then there are other types of physiological responses...
I too, do not have contractions, per se. I do get sensations in my abdominal cavity that last for short periods. I guess I only have one "real" contraction that I am aware of and that one is my body compressing around my spleen to release a little more 02saturated hemoglobin... it comes late in the swim and, if I am swimming alot, I don't even notice it.
While swimming, since I have taken the practice of Tolerance training seriously, I have very little discomfort, even at the end of long swims... I am so relaxed that sometimes I wonder if that is good.
Lungfish

 

[Morg]

Lungfish,

What training do you mean by tolerance training? 02/c02 tables and thats it? Or are you doing other things like apnea walks? I am very curious because I would like to increase my own.

Thanks,
Morg

 

[lungfish]

I do two types of tolerance training. Tables and hypoxic interval training. Basically I breath ever other side every other stroke, every third stroke, or fifth, seventh or ninth for long swims... 500-1000yds. I also support that with basic cardio/pulmonary interval training using the punching bag or running. Hill training is particularly helpful.

You can do apnea weight training, etc. but I think all that gets too far afield of the basic skill. Practice apnea, train cardio.....

Tolerance tables by themselves can take you a very long ways towards profound apnea skills....

Lungfish

 

[Morg]

Ah thank you for that information.

Is Hypoxic training safe to do alone in a pool? I am always on the look out for solo training methods .

Also when I was doing my form dynamics on the pool at the very end of the 50 yard run my legs would be burning. I figured that my legs are not in the best of shape for this thing so what I did was, I used the dolphin kick... it took longer to complete the 50 yard but my legs were a lot better after.

What muscle group would I target for scizor bi-fining? Any paticlar exercises?

Thanks ,
Morg

 

[lungfish]

Sure Morg,

There is no danger of black out from hypoxic swimming training like that I described.... it isn't like apnea walking.

and dolphin kicking is good. When you do deep swimming, you will want to experiment with wide amplitude dolphin kicking vs stereo finning to distribute the lactic build up across multiple muscle groups and reduce 02 consumption.
As far as stereo fin training, consider the standard quad machine, light weights, heavy reps, or pyramid training. Reverse leg lift, ab and back machines are also good. And don't forget your lats, you need them for good swimming, regardless of the fins.

I own two quad machines, an ab machine, a back machine and a lat machine, along with a pull-up stand.... do it in the garage, saves on time and bs at the local meat market...

I think I will be shipping it all to Kona so it may be there when you arrive... I was thinking of setting it up in the drive under a portable awning...

Lungfish

 

[nmaino]

I do not get this feeling when I hold my breath, but rather, the feeling that the back of my throat is very dry and that I need a drink of water.

 

[immerlustig]

lungfish,

why can you not black out during hypoxic swimming training? also, if you have lactic acid building up that means your body is conserving o2 as the muscles are switching to anaerobic metabolism. so using more muscles will only increase o2 consumption, no?

it's rather late, maybe i misunderstand something...

roland

 

[lungfish]

Sure, I will explain....

Hypoxic swimming training is not apnea training. In hypoxic swimming, one creates an "02 debt" and forces the body to continue performing. One is still breathing and metabolizing aerobically, just operating longer on less 02.

The wide amplitude dolphin kick is not the same as dynamic fin dolphin kick or butterfly kick. It is actually not a kick at all. It is an insinuation, an attempt to mimic the motion of an eel. In a standard dolphin kick, one creates a sine wave that begins with the shoulders and travels throught the body to the top of the tip of the fin. A wide amplitude kick seeks leverage against the water both when flexing the abs and when flexing the back. One uses both sides of the blade rather than kicking only against the "top" of the blade.

This has the effect of spreading the work load across the body rather than focusing it on the quads. This is more efficient use of 02 than focusing on a single muscle group. Won't use less, but will use it more efficiently.

Hope that clarifies it...

Lungfish

 

[immerlustig]

i see. in my opinion being hypoxic while at the same time having high levels of co2 doesn't mean that a bo cannot occur. low o2 is low o2, no matter how much co2 is in the body. i would agree that it is far more difficult to push yourself to bo with very high co2. but i wouldn't go so far and tell anyone that a bo won't or can't happen. i just think that's a bit of a dangerous statement to make.

regarding the dolphin kick, yes, the workload will be distributed to more muscle groups. still, when muscles work unaerobically o2 will become available for the brain which eventually keeps you conscious longer. that's one reason why exhale diving and working on the dive reflex in general is so beneficial as early and strong vasoconstriction will reduce blood supply to kicking muscles getting them to switch to anaerobic metabolism earlier.

for repetitive fun dives i want to be aerobic (no lactic acid, quick recovery). here i could envision using an alternate kicking technique. but for one max dive i rather be very anaerobic and my legs should be burning. seb murat has been talking about that a lot and it does make sense to me.

comments?

 

[naiad]

I wouldn't do any sort of hypoxic training alone. Maybe it is safe, I don't know, just my opinion...

 

[lungfish]

Hi, Immerlustig,

Sure, it probably is a dangerous statement regarding hypoxic training and blackout. However, I trained at a very high level as a competitive swimmer and we put the entire team through hypoxic training for years without an incident. In fact, in my entire experience over almost twenty years of intensive competitive swimming training and all levels of training from beginner up to national/international level competition and there was never a single breath/gas imbalance related injury. Never even heard of one.

I attribute this to the fundamentally aerobic nature of surface/speed swimming training.

Re: Dolphin kicking and negative pressure or exhale diving.... for the benefit of other readers, these are newer techniques that have not become "mainstream". The idea with exhale diving is that you breathup, saturate, then exhale before descending and dive on more-or-less empty lungs. One of the main officianados of this technique is Sebastian Murat. Physiologically, at least to 50meters, the technique is sound, probably even superior, but it is a radical departure from breath-hold diving as practiced by world record holders like Martin Stepanek and from the way I was trained and the way most people practice freediving.

So, in the context of negative pressure diving, I agree with you. You are probably right about anaerobic function being preferable for a performance dive.

In the context of purge, peak inhale and pack techniques, pressurized lungs, the wide amplitude dolphin kick is an effective way to distribute the load. The concept of distribution is different from exhale diving. Frankly, I don't have a lot of experience beyond 60meters and at those levels, I am not challenged by lactic build up. Of course, technically diving with careful attention to all phases of the dive make this much easier.

Lungfish

 

[DeepThought]

Lehmann108, here's an old thread a bit more on the topic of sensations:
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=57955"]sexual arousing during contractions[/ame]

Do you get those sensations in static or while diving or what? Never had any of those during apnea and I don't think it is common actually. Do you consider them as benefit or a burden?

 

[naiad]

I thought that thread would come up.

Very occasionally, when I am very close to the limit, I get an intense all over nice feeling. It isn't like anything else, as if the intense feeling of the urge to breathe gets suddenly transformed from a bad feeling to a good one, and one which I don't want to stop. Of course, I do stop, because it means I am at the limit.