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AIDA WCh 2007, Maribor

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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It IS a stupid rule... And there are many more rules that I would like to see disappear. But we are slowly getting there. I was pretty satisfied with what we, the judges, did in Maribor. Especially with only 2 serious protests. That is a big improvement in previous WC's. We just let the freediver disqualify himself.
 
Reactions: josedesucre and pat fish
Rules are the same for anybody. But I saw many bad judge decision on the Champs, not only 0,01% sure...What was red card for no name athletes, the same performance was white for 'world rec. class' freediver!!!
Balázs[/quote]

I find this comment interesting as in my own experiences as a judge I would tend to be more vigilant towards the top athletes expecting them to KNOW the rules better than those newcomers. Ok so I realise this will be interpreted as not being consistent and this is also what some of you are saying but lets face it - not even the top rugby refs get it right 100% of the time and they are being paid to do the job.
Are those of you who put the judges down ever been in their position? Do you realise how much responsibility they take on and how nerve racking the whole experience can be?

As for the line rule - it obviously needs to be either reworded or thrown out if there is so much debate about it. AIDA should begin the process to change this, with full consultation of course, otherwise some of you will be accusing Bill of changing it because he felt like it.
 
Stig showed the weak point of the edge/line grabbing rule. I hope it will be soon be corrected.

Timo, I think, did a brave thing, he actually may have contributed us with the discussion we're having here and the adjustment/abolishment of the regulations.

Sandi and all the others for a great competition! It was very exiting, and the finals and record brought some tears of joy in my eyes. I hope you have time to recover from all the worries and work you and your team have done.

Love, courage and water,

Kars
 
And don't forget Kars and his magnificent chocolate cake!!!! Tasted great mate!

Love, piece of chocolate cake,
Ben
 
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Not to go off subject, but Benny what's your email address?

DSV
 
f3dive said:
Rules are the same for anybody.
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NOT a useful argument for defending a rule that might be bad.
f3dive said:
Are those of you who put the judges down ever been in their position? Do you realise how much responsibility they take on and how nerve racking the whole experience can be?.
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Yes I do know. But if you sign up for a WC judge job (or WR rec attempt) you should be able to stand the heat afterwards. Its volontarily. We judges KNOW we are not getting a paid (apart from travel, food, accomodation and lots of free time sometimes). So we can not come afterwards a say that "I dont get paid - so dont expect so much of me". We DO expect much of our judges.
f3dive said:
otherwise some of you will be accusing Bill of changing it because he felt like it.
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I will, and I have already done it, because he does (take decsions that should have been taken by broader consenus - in my opinion (and others).

Sebastian
Dahab

PS f3dive -Your name?
 
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Reactions: pat fish
f3dive said:
Are those of you who put the judges down ever been in their position? Do you realise how much responsibility they take on and how nerve racking the whole experience can be?
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The judges signed up for this. I am not putting the judges down. This was a "World Championships" and the judges should be of the highest caliber (which I believe most were), but the judges and athletes are attending this "World Championships" together and should know the rules and abide by them especially if there is a world record involved. So I believe that both parties are at fault in the case of the World record being overturned back to a white card.


I believe Bill does what Bill wants. rofl (just kidding Bill, love ya)

I understand that the rule may read a bit confusing and should be split into 2 seperate rules 5.17 and 5.17.1

The second part of rule 5.17 below is what applied to Stig's performance

5.17
Any propulsion assistance other than swimming movements is forbidden (except in case of thrusting against the side of the wall during turns).

(I have split rule 5.17 as an example. This is not an official rule change.)

5.17 This means the nose and/or mouth of the athlete have to exit before or simultaneously, when grabbing the pool edge or the lane-rope in the pool.

His hand clearly came out of the water and was touching the line prior to his airway.

I believe that the rule should be reworded, but it is pretty clear.

DSV
 
Re: Where to take it from here

cebaztian said:
A few ideas on where to take it from here:
Freediving - creating an audience
Sebastian
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From Freediving - creating an audience,
"Bringing the WC Maribor media concept one step further would consist of:
- A videoscreen producer....
- Intercomsystem.....
- A system of directly knowing the judgedecision...

Sebastian,

A great outline for advancing the development of the sport for mass consumption.

Since I am a one-event-competitor, my wife and I were spectators the rest of the time. One thing we felt would help everyone in the audience would be: posting the results on the big TV screen. Even at most every high school swim meet, the results end up on the wall almost immediately. It would seem that linking a computer into the TV circuitry of the big screen should be doable. Just an idea....

Now that we're back on the ground, maybe I can catch up on all the internet waves following WC. Thanks for your commentary.

In peace,
Glen
 
Reactions: pat fish
What about just eliminating all this nonsense about "any propulsion assistance other than swimming movements is forbidden" from the rules. Is crawling along the bottom or pulling yourself inches below the surface along the lane rope with your hands more efficient than swimming streamlined with a monofin? :duh I don't think so.

Also, grabbing the lane rope or wall to help lift your airway to breathe is safer. It's a natural instinct. How does is really affect the performance? If you want to make it equal for everyone, then just make sure every competitor swims in lanes divided by lane ropes or a wall. Then it's the same for everyone.

We've hashed over this rule in detail elsewhere in the forum, pretty comprehensively, so we probably don't need to go over it again. Or maybe we do.

Overall, I think we should strive to make the rules as simple to perform and officiate as possible.

Sebastian, what is the democratic process for proposing rule changes, so that we are all reminded...?
 
Reactions: pat fish
Pete, I think you hit the nail right smack on the head.

All this complaining about rules puts me off even going to a competition. I hope AIDA can sort themselves out because for the most part they do such a fantastic job. It would be a shame to see them fizzle out like F.R.E.E has, or lose their reputation like CMAS has.

Good luck figuring it out AIDA QUICKLY!! (as in before the next international competition.)
 
Everyone should remember that AIDA Intl has come a hell of a long way in the last few years, none of this "blink and it's a DQ" mentality anymore. That said, it's certainly not static and it's good to revisit a couple of things....

Why is that rule in place?
What is that rule doing?
Is that rule making it harder for the athlete?
Is that rule making it safer for the athlete?
Does breaking that rule giving an unfair advantage to the athlete?
Is the penalty appropriate for breaking the rule?

These sorts of questions can only be answered AFTER a rule has been introduced and been experienced in real life by a number of athletes. Often this will take up to a year before enough athletes have been affected by a particular rule to have a good understanding of how it works in the real world and not on the AIDA International notepad.

I really don't like hearing this rubbish about the rules are too hard, I won't compete because I don't understand the rules. Every sport has rules (you think freediving is complicated... look at cricket, golf, american football... and try to explain the offside rule to me in all ball sports!), and it's the athlete's responsibility to learn them. It's not hard. Whether you think the rules are right or not is a completely different matter. But learn the current ones first.

I thought 99% of the judging was spot on (including my red card). Some things I saw from the stands were bleedingly obvious incorrect decisions, but keep in mind we're human and we make mistakes, that's why there's a protest mechanism.

Same for the safety guys, I saw some bad mistakes, but by and large these guys were excellent, and they were run off their feet like no other competition ever. There were something like 55 DQ's and most of these were driven by LMC and BO in the dynamic events. That many rescues can't be an easy thing.

Ok, that's my angry monday morning rant. I'll have my coffee now :t

Cheers,
Ben

Ps. Igor - great photos mate!

Pps. Deron - I think I have your email somewhere, i'll shoot you a mail.
 
Re: Where to take it from here


There were results updates on the big screen at pauses, but its not that easy to link everything to a computer. At swimming there is a special programme that has the results up the second a swimmer touches the pool edge. Such programs are extremely expensive to make and we don't have any for freediving. So we had to make the results by hand make a picture out of it and then put it on the screen. When the sport grows and there are some good sponsors involved there will be a possibility of making things "proffesional". And the first step was made. I'm getting a lot of good response from everybody, also the spectators. They said that it was interesting to watch the finals and quite dramatic. They also found athletes fighting to do the protocol wery interesting.
 
Samba simply sells, be it in Rio during the carnival or in the pool, in Maribor!
 
laminar said:
Sebastian, what is the democratic process for proposing rule changes, so that we are all reminded...?
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Maybe not the right person to ask this question (since I am not an Aida official), but since you ask I'll be happy to give my opinion

Democracy seem to be interpreted somewhat different in different countries. Sometimes representative, sometimes more direct. Sometimes several powers that balance each other.

I believe that the elected leader of an organization has a mandate to act independently, even taking decisions him or herself in certain cases, specially minor issues. In our "representative" organization the board is elected to solve problems at hand and develop the organization. But ultimatly everything Aida does (or any individual inside the organization does) is the responability of the assembly. They have the power to at any point demand a vote (7-8 countries or more) on any issue.

For me a democratic Aida spells: an active assembly.

About the line pulling rule I would say its enough if the technical committy give their opinion and the the board (after holding up the finger in the air, feeling the opinion) just votes on it among themselves. Its not like the magnitude LMC rule where the assembly was rightly asked.

If you feel (as an individual member of a national) that Aida should act. You have to make your national find at least 6 other nationals that wants a vote on the same subject (they dont have to have the same opinion). If the names and demands of these countries are sent to the board - the board has to initiate a vote in the assembly.

Sebastian

BEN - we will never hear the voice of the people that does not show up on competition. They are just detered and dont show up. Its AIDAs and the organizers responsability to make an intelligent guess on why this is. Myself I believe the complicated and sometime "illogic" rules are one reason (having been part of a doussin "organizations of competions")
 
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True, though up to a point, I think we (the competitors) find the rules confusing because we have seen many versions of them, we've seen them morph into what they are today, and are probably a bit emotionally attached to some rules and the reasons those rules came about. A new competitor only sees the rules as they are now, just a single layer. In a way I think that should seem simpler.

It's a wide mix of reasons - perceived complicated rules, lack of motivation/inspiration, cost to compete, fear of competition/competing, fear of coming last, lack of incentive...
 
Reactions: cebaztian
Re: Where to take it from here

SanSan said:
There were results updates on the big screen at pauses...
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Thanks for the explanation. We did not see results after each heat. I really meant the final results as much as anything. The only way for a spectator to get the final results was (1) to go down on the deck and over look the crowd around the posting on the wall or (2) somehow to finagle a copy of the results when they finally came available, usually quite sometime after everyone had left. I only offered this as a suggestion for the future, not a criticism of the competition. We found the whole competition very well organized and very well run. The presentation of the events were exciting to watch and the whole audience got involved. Thank you for a great time.
In peace,
Glen
 
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