alcohol and training

[adolphin]

Hi fcallagy ..
Well, this view is comon in too many things in life, I believe there's a big difference between thinking and knowing that's for sure, I could follow what I think or think not, but knowing what's good or bad for me and for the world makes a lot of difference, it's the same when it comes to environmental issues such as the issue of killing whales or when it's about alcohol, as long as it's a fact, don't you agree?
Where I come from they believe that this whole universe is one big complicated system that works all together, each movement has an effect on the whole system, some movements are mild some are more strong, others are fatal, in all cases we are responsible for all our movements (and non-movments alike) and should take this responsibility with big conciousness, we look at alcohol consumption as a dangerous issue, it happened that new science is standing at the same side, it's normal, facts of life are FACTS when you look at them objectivly.

 

[island_sands]

Hi fcallagy ..
for the world makes a lot of difference, it's the same when it comes to environmental issues such as the issue of killing whales or when it's about alcohol, as long as it's a fact, don't you agree?

ohhhh that's a whole discussion on it own.. see this... rofl
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=61652&highlight=whale+ring

 

[adolphin]

And oh yes fcallagy, life is to be lived that's for sure..
now did any one told you that those who don't drink alcohol are not living ? ..
and thanks Bill, I believe you answered my question partially, it's about joy. Now don't we know many other acts that might be joyful for some people, acts that are very bad? well, maybe drinking alcohol doesn't look obviously as bad to you as much as some criminal acts, such as killing, stealing or raping ! .. after all bad acts can't be accepted just because it's joyful, as long as it's bad not only for the person commiting it, but to the socity as well then it should not be tolerated. Right?
Hey guys .. I'm not criminalizing your act of drinking, at least it's legal where you are living, it's just my way when I get examples I get extremes to make it crystal clear what my point is. I hope it is clear.
With :inlove to all .. and dive safe ..

 

[matrixed82]

How many of those studies Bill ? and have you compared them with studies saying No No No ? is it a 1:1 ratio or maybe 1:1000 ? by the way, most studies that say it's good they say it's good (period), while there are thousand of studies that each talk about one BIG don't regarding drinking while doing something or how it's bad for a certain part or organ of the body, which one of the two do you believe is more scintific, more objective?

Most recent studies show that there are health benefits associated with light-to-moderate drinking of alcohol (quick search through PubMed). Like everything else, moderation is the key and yes, heavy drinking can kill you.

 

[fcallagy]

Island sands just read most of that thread that was a good thread
adolphin your right about things being unacceptable to society thats what I meant by not harming others. we all have belief systems that are shaped by our past experiances, traditions, and sometimes facts but whats acceptable with one set of beliefs may not be with some one elses. In Ireland we are a hugely changed country over the past 20 years as some religous leaders told us how to live our lives as they saw fit eventually it came out they were not living up to these sentiments themselves and so change began in a big way.
However we are straying off the topic, it would be interesting to see how many champion freedivers do take alcohol at all or how much at times. I am not a champion freediver or sports person so its not going to affect my performance dramaticly I think the main problem is dehydration after a skipful of drink but others may know of other effects

 

[adolphin]

sands ! .. how are you ?! .. oh my .. what a thread, I thought whaling issue is so clear for freedivers .. well. it seems it's not that clear or is it that the few participations in the thread is giving that feeling .. thank God we don't eat whales, dolphins nor turtles, and ofcourse we don't eat dugong as a shiat muslim ofcourse (since others do).. Oo! I should have said this in the other thread, sorry commonerg .. :mute
fcallagy, I got a general knowledge about Ireland as a socity, I've been there by the way (southern Ireland) man, it's sooooo beautiful ! I love it and I love it's people, they are so nice indeed.
Well, I prefer not to make it a religous subject, coz it's not, commonerg brought the thread from a medical point of view, I'm discussing it from a scintific and medical point of few, economic, social .. etc. not religous, coz then it would be merely a matter of what does the named religon say. We want something more global, human .. right ..

 

[fcallagy]

hi adolphin
cool don,t wanna make this religious either just making the point that it can, whether we realise it or not shape what we choose to believe/understand is right. Certainly from a medical point of view I would agree its bad for you, it kills brain cells and is a depressant but sometime a little of whats bad for you can be good for you imho. If your ever back this way give us a shout it is a great spot but is raining heavy here at present and wind is due to pick up just in time for my week end off.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Hey guys .. I'm not criminalizing your act of drinking, at least it's legal where you are living, it's just my way when I get examples I get extremes to make it crystal clear what my point is. I hope it is clear.
With :inlove to all .. and dive safe ..

Well frankly, your posts were not at all clear to me. They read like you might have had a bit too much to drink.

 

[commonerg]

I guess I should involve myself in this thread again. My purpose in starting this thread was to gather more objective information so that I can make better judgments on the amount I drink. The way I see it, any decision we make is carried out by weighting the known positives and negatives of alternatives to find the most beneficial choice in each case. How much weight each individual puts on the outcomes of drinking is not really of interest to me. In essence, the decision of others outside of the actual social situations I’m in should not change my decision. The only reason I might change my behavior based on the decisions of another is if I think that person knows something that I don’t about the effects of drinking. However, I would rather know what that person knows than know what they do.

In general, I understand what the positives of drinking are. I don’t really need to know the science behind why it makes me feel good because I’m only interested in the perceived feeling anyway. As for the negatives, I want to know the science because I have to predict as I make the decision how I will feel the next day and how it will affect my performance. The more I understand about the science behind the whole process, the more my decision will actually represent an optimal one for me.

What ever decision you make, I admire it. We all value things differently but we should all value information the same way because it helps us get more of what we value.

 

[spaghetti]

If I was born in Yemen or in Pakistan, I would probably suscribe everything adolphin says. But I'm an italian, and drinking wine is a very important feature of my culture. Our poets wrote poems about wine for thousands years, our artists painted people drinking wine, our religion has much to do with it.
You see, every town here makes its own peculiar wine, and each wine gets its name from the region or even from the small village where it's produced. Each of them is different, a result of centuries of experience, depending on terrain, techniques of production, taste of local typical food that must fit well with the local wine. Drinking it is not just drinking, it's a cultural heritage difficult to explain if you don't feel it deep inside yourself.
However, i usually drink after diving

 

[commonerg]

However, i usually drink after diving

Mothers against drunk diving.

 

[adolphin]

fcallagy,

Certainly from a medical point of view I would agree its bad for you, it kills brain cells and is a depressant

Great ! .. that's what I was talking about

If your ever back this way give us a shout

Cool man, I'll make sure to shout out loud when I'm in the neighbor ..I would love to meet .. .. please do the same if ever you come to Dubai or Abu Dhabi .. !
I wish you a weekend full of sun, and wind-free ..

 

[adolphin]

Bill McIntyre,

Well frankly, your posts were not at all clear to me. They read like you might have had a bit too much to drink.

Well, I think my best chance is that you give up alcohol for couple of evenings, then read my comments, twice, that would probably work ..

Otherwise, if you would agree to stop it for 40 days, you would surely get to understand it from the first shot!

 

[adolphin]

commonerg,

I understand this, so I hope I could get some good references, since it should be scientific as I understood right from the beginning ..

I don't think you should take word of mouth, should you ?

The way I see it, any decision we make is carried out by weighting the known positives and negatives of alternatives to find the most beneficial choice in each case. How much weight each individual puts on the outcomes of drinking is not really of interest to me

From this I understand that if one person gets you 100 different individual scientific references about the subject, you would consider it as 100 in weight, while if 100 persons each of them get you the same piece of information from one only reference (all of them refer to the same source), then you consider it 1 in weight, does that sounds right ? coz it sounds very logical to me!

 

[adolphin]

spaghetti,

Thank you for the comment .. .. I have few points if you allow me.

If I was born in Yemen or in Pakistan, I would probably suscribe everything adolphin says.

This is not right in my opinion, first coz I'm not from Pakistan, nor do I come from Yemen, I come from United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi ..
Second, since you chosed to drink alcohol, then most probably that what you were going to do if you come originaly from any country of the world, because that is your choice as a person, we do have heavy drinkers here too, some who enjoys it to the last drop, and write poems about it, Arab countries knew wine for thousands of years and still do, maybe you don't know this, I think you should ..

But I'm an italian, and drinking wine is a very important feature of my culture. Our poets wrote poems about wine for thousands years, our artists painted people drinking wine, our religion has much to do with it.

What is your religion ? I thought it was Christianity ! .. if so, it's not different than mine.

You see, every town here makes its own peculiar wine, and each wine gets its name from the region or even from the small village where it's produced. Each of them is different, a result of centuries of experience, depending on terrain, techniques of production, taste of local typical food that must fit well with the local wine. Drinking it is not just drinking, it's a cultural heritage difficult to explain if you don't feel it deep inside yourself.

As I told you earlier, wine and other alcohol drinks are very well known here, our tradition if full of poems about them, and if you know Arabic language and how deep it is in expressing feelings, visions and imaginations you could imagine what I'm talking about ..
still, your words remind me of Dates and Date tree in our tradition as a heritage, it is so intinsive and very romantic, so I think I could imagine what you're talking about anyway, and you can imagine mine as well.

I'm sorry to say one thing, and hope you understand me please, whatever and however a certain matter is deep into a culture, if it is bad, then it should not be adopted or accepted by it's own people, there is a culture who kills endangered turtles in the most barberian ways, it's their heritage, some other cultures humiliate women, or look at other races with humiliating look, it's their culture and hertitage, still you would hate such a cultural view or act and you would want it's people to change and to take away what is bad and keep what is good with out the need to completely change they would always be what they are (only with no bad side).

However, i usually drink after diving

rofl .. excuse me dear, but that's the whole point in this thread ..

With my :inlove

 

[trux]

As already told, drinking alcohol is cultural and social matter. I admit that countries where alcohol drinking is not usual or acceptable, people still may have a lot of fun without it. For many Czechs, going to a pub to chat with friends and drinking couple of beers is rather social necessity (and fun) than physical addiction (though there are certainly many who are indeed addicted).

Especially after training, having a beer with friends allows you to speak to them and to know them better than in the pool. Sure, we could drink tea, or alcohol-free beverages (and some indeed do), but the beer is part of our culture, and I do not think it will change any soon.

But why waiting with drinking after the diving? Just drink during it! Drinking a 0.5l bottle of beer (bottom-up) underwater in apnea was part of our diving club admission exams.

It is little known that besides many AIDA world records, Martin Stepanek (together with four other Czech divers) also created a record in drinking beer under water! Here is the press release:

Štafeta 5 x 1 pivo pod vodou

PĚTIČLENNÝ TÝM POTÁPĚČŮ ve složení Jaroslav Polák, Jiří Hurda, Jiří Bartoška, Petr Zlatuška a Martin Štěpánek vypila pod vodou štafetově pět lahvových piv v čase 2:18,31 min.

Rekordu bylo dosaženo 14. června 2003 v rámci 13. ročníku mezinárodního festivalu rekordů, kuriozit a piva Budvar v Pelhřimově.

Translation:

Team of five divers (Jaroslav Polak, Jiri Hurda, Jiri Bartoska, Petr Zlatuska and Martin Stepanek) drank 5 bottles of beer [each 0.5l] in an underwater relay in time of 2'18". They achieved the record on June 14, 2003 during the 13th International Budvar Festival of Records, Curiosities and Beer in Pelhrimov [Czech Rep].

Note: Budvar is the producer of Budweiser beer - I mean the real one, original Czech beer, not the disgusting stuff you drink in the USA Czech Budweiser is brewed in Budweis (Ceske Budejovice) [just like the real Pilsener (Pilsner Urquell) is brewed only in Pilsen (also Czech Rep.)] since couple of hundreds years and unlike the US fake drink, it is an excellent beer. (BTW, do you know what sexual intercourse in a canoe and (US) Bud have common? They are both f**ky close to water!)

 

[commonerg]

From this I understand that if one person gets you 100 different individual scientific references about the subject, you would consider it as 100 in weight, while if 100 persons each of them get you the same piece of information from one only reference (all of them refer to the same source), then you consider it 1 in weight, does that sounds right ? coz it sounds very logical to me!

I was refering to putting weight on the actual outcomes.For instance, we know there are some negative performance effects from drinking and we know there are some positive social effects (though they differ from individual to idividual) and perhaps some positive emotional effects. Even for two people for which alcohol affects in the exact same way- same outcomes and all, they might choose to consumer different amounts because they value performance and social interaction differently. I don't want to question why people put certain values on the outcomes of drinking I only want to know more about the outcomes so that the values I assign allow me to more thoroughly enjoy the things I want to enjoy.

To sum up, some people would rather dance, enjoy good food and drink, meet women, etc than do a 7:30 static. Others might choose the static. I would like to do both and I want to make descisions along the way which help me balance the two. The more I know, the more easily I am able to do that.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Note: Budvar is the producer of Budweiser beer - I mean the real one, original Czech beer, not the disgusting stuff you drink in the USA Czech Budweiser is brewed in Budweis (Ceske Budejovice) [just like the real Pilsener (Pilsner Urquell) is brewed only in Pilsen (also Czech Rep.)] since couple of hundreds years and unlike the US fake drink, it is an excellent beer. (BTW, do you know what sexual intercourse in a canoe and (US) Bud have common? They are both f**ky close to water!)

I love that joke. I first used it heard it about 40 years ago only the beer in question was Coors light. However, it sure does apply to US Bud. I have had the pleasure of drinking the Czech Budweiser In Prague, and Pilsner Urquell both in the US and in Prague, and there is no comparison to most of the US beers. And while I'm at it, I would observe that the most beautiful women I've ever seen are in Prague. My wife had to keep a tight grip on my hand and a brace on my neck.

I don't think we are going to change adolphin's puritanical attitude no matter what we say, but maybe we should return to the original question posed- will alcohol consumption hurt performance? Drunk driving is to be deplored, and getting drunk every night and beating your wife and kids is not a good idea either, but that sort of thing is not in question, even if adolphin keeps trying to make that the focus.

Getting drunk and having a hangover certainly will hurt performance. But Mark Stepanek seems to do pretty well in freediving despite beer consumption, and Frank Shorter won the Olympic marathon despite beer consumption. I suppose its at least possible that they could do even better if they abstained, but its also possible that they would do worse because they had miserable lives with no social interaction. I'm not saying that social interaction is not possible without alcohol, but simply that for many people, a glass of beer or wine helps them relax.

My wife and I have taken three bicyling trips through Italy and five in France. After pedaling the hills all day carrying 40 pounds of luggage on my bike, I really enjoy the great food available in both countries, and I really enjoy the great local wines which vary so much in one day's bicycle distance. I just can't imagine eating that great food without the great wine. And during our four bicycle trips in Ireland, I can't imagine missing that great beer and stout at the end of a day's ride.

Yes, its a cultural thing, but I have adopted those cultures, and I've always been able to get on the bike and pedal the next day. I just don't think it makes a measurable difference in my performance.

 

[trux]

Not only Martin Stepanek drinks during diving, but also Herbert Nitch does! He was caught at it - look at the video. Additionally, it hapened in SETT - I think I should consider taking a SETT course with DeeperBlue too!

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I guess I should issue a disclaimer. I just noticed that this thread is in general freediving, and I suppose that means that its really about people who train to see how close they can come to death without going over the edge.

I'm just a freediving spearfisherman, and not even interested in competing at that activity. I don't want to stay down any longer than necessary to shoot and retrieve a fish. So I guess I shouldn't even be butting into this thread. If your goal is to push the limits, then I suppose anything that might subtract a second from your time matters. A few seconds really won't make much difference in how many fish I shoot, so I have an entirely different perspective. I'll try to stay out of it.