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Aquatic Ape - update (long, long post)

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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That doesn't make any sense, 'cause the oldest roads are only 6.000 years old, and the bicycle only some 200 years old. At the same time, the earliest implications of human bipedalism is at least 4.4 million years old (Ardipithecus), and perhaps as much as 7 million (Sahelanthropus, or though disputed).
And at the same time, the African Savannah is only 1 million years old, so that couldn't have created human bipedalism, but that's a different story.
 
A few points leads to some suspicions, this book is presented as a scientific work but hides itself behind vague credentials, the editor is indeed a worker at the University of Ghent but not at all in the topics of human evolution (rather microbiology and immunology), the co-editors are from an unknown “Study Center for Anthropology “and from a forensic sciences department. So none of the editors seems to have credentials in anthropology/human evolution, already at this level it looks more like a book created on the base of a hobby. If it would be fully honest it would present itself as such and not under the disguise of a scientific publication.
Now, for sure I’m not anthropologist either, so I am not able (or it would cost me much time, and the AAT is not my hobby, I rather try to adapt myself to the deep cold waters with real fins and regain the lost properties of my fur with neoprene:D) to discuss comprehensively this topic, but many signs shows that we are more in the domain of belief then proofs, to me it seems full of ad hoc hypothesis that are serving well a cause but that are far from rock solid and the way the topic is discussed resemble the intelligent design debate.
And the way Trux is placing two wheeled baits that are immediately taken just reinforce my impression.
 
Are you seriously gonna claim, that Philip fricking Tobias from the excavations of Olduvai Gorge is hiding behind a "vague" credential?

Freedivers should be aware of Erika Schagatay through her studies of the Moken sea gypsies and their UW vision capability. Elaine Morgan has developed this idea for over 40 years. We wouldn't know what we know without her. Not acknowledging her contributions would be like not mentioning Galileo in a discussion about the universe.

And Marc Verhaegen and Algis Kuliukas are the two foremost experts in this field of today. Yes, their research have been conducted outside the realm of traditional anthropology, because this field traditionally deals with this wet idea like the Catholic Church dealt with the heliocentric universe. Somebody has to do their job, and today no one is better qualified than them to compile this collection of studies.

This is another thing that seriously irritates me about this issue. The reluctance to deal with the argumentation and the subsequent "wet" conclusion about ourselves, so instead a lot of people seek to discredit the individuals pursuing the work. Deal with the proposed evidence instead.

I will admit, I have very little humour left concerning all this. At some point it's just not fun anymore to see an entire scientific field hack away at their own giants. I'm seeing a fifty year old mockery of what may be the greatest scientific discovery since Raymond Dart, for seemingly no scientific reasons. And if that's being religious, then all Darwinists are religious.

What the hell are people so afraid of with this idea? So what if we're old beach apes?
 
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Ok, as I said, I'm not an anthropologist, so I am not up to date with all the litterature, I've seen that Ph.Tobias is putting the "savannah" hypothesis on the side but show me where he endorse the aquatic ape theory, I don't say he does not, but I want to see/read it

And for my former post, I am not attacking poeple, just saying that non experts are not the best poeple to convince when such paradigms are at stake.
 
I'm sure Tobias still reserves some reservation, like we should all do, but the case for something wet having influenced human evolution is just incredibly strong by now. At least as strong as the indications of some big bang in the universe 15 billion years ago.

But that still seems to escape the contemporary field of anthropology, which is so bizarre considering the current stance of the idea. I can't expect you to take my word for it, but all I have learned from monitoring this debate (or lack of it) for some 15 years is that the proper academic field is stuck in pseudo-skepticism, generally because the idea was originally suggested by a zoologist and not an anthropologist, and then pursued by some hag of a TV screenplay writer. That it's all academic social nonsense, and not valid scientific concern.
I hate conspiracy theories, and I'm sure this objection was originally due to academic sickness from people like Erich von Däniken and Dan Brown. But Morgan does not belong in that category, 'cause I sure as hell can't spot the blatant elements of pseudoscience in the key arguments, which the critics claim exist. To keep ignoring her scientific contribution is a travesty at this point, whether she's a member of the proper clergy or not.
Maybe anthropology didn't dare to touch this idea in the 1960's, because they feared exposure to ridicule. But by doing that, they are now even more exposed to ridicule, as much as during the Piltdown man scandal.

I don't know, this podcast of an old BBC radio programme might represent the mess adequately. It's worth listening to in this context.
BBC - Radio 4 - Scars of Evolution
 
I can give you this quote by Phillip Tobias, from the BBC link:
"Regrettably, the name [the aquatic ape theory] is its own worst enemy, I believe. That’s what makes people laugh. Let’s just talk about water and human evolution." - Phillip Tobias
 
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And all I got back after that was total silence.

Look, tell me the truth, do y'all think I'm nuts, because I'm convinced that this idea explains to me who and what the hell I am? Some kind of 'bathing ape', biologically speaking? 'cause it's not really my intention to be nuts.
 
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I think it is simpler - nobody of us is anthropologist here. We may be inclined to believe one or the other side more, but that's so far all. Logically, people without deep understanding of a specific topic have little reason to reject the mainstream theory, until proven wrong (but then it won't be the mainstream theory any more). Personally, I won't start arguing on a topic where I have absolutely no theoretical background, just because I believe or disbelieve a theory I superficially saw. There are thousands of theories about everything in the science, and they change all the time. Some may be nuts and finally prevail, others remain stable for long time. Time may perhpas tell us more in future. Perhaps not.
 
Nutty professors are the greatest! :D

Chris it would be an utterly boring world if were to have no uniqueness, and were all in agreement lookalikes. We would not learn much either, and be in fact arrested in development. So though I'm not super passionate about the subject, I do appreciate your efforts! They have me questioning and thinking. Perhaps you could assemble the new key info and make a little youtube series out of it, just for fun, keeping your editing skills up.
I must say I'm missing some visuals in this thread, a few pictures would spice it up :)
 
Nutty professors are the greatest! :D

Chris it would be an utterly boring world if were to have no uniqueness, and were all in agreement lookalikes. We would not learn much either, and be in fact arrested in development. So though I'm not super passionate about the subject, I do appreciate your efforts! They have me questioning and thinking. Perhaps you could assemble the new key info and make a little youtube series out of it, just for fun, keeping your editing skills up.
I must say I'm missing some visuals in this thread, a few pictures would spice it up :)

Basically this new info you're suggesting is listed in the first post (or, it's not really new any of it, it's a contemporary summarization commemorating fifty years after the initial suggestion of the idea).

I'll give you the one key aquatic ape argument, that have probably closed the deal once and for all, which is the argument about the human brain's unique nutritional requirements (unique from the other great apes, chimps, gorillas, orangutans, etc.). The human brain has grown exponentially throughout our evolution while our cousins have grown very little comparitively, and also while mammal species adapting to grasslands all (all!) reduce their brain size comparitively, because the nutrition to sustain it just aren't there.

Primarily, the modern brain of Homo sapiens (us) needs fat to both fully develop and sustain itself throughout our life, and not just any fat. It needs specific Omega fatty acids (3, especially) and in particular Iodine ions. These two exact substances are in combination close to impossible to garner in adequate measures even through a varied terrestrial diet, but guess where they are both abundant? In seafood. To the point, where it just can't be refuted that this would've most likely been the diet we are naturally adapted to find in our original habitat; Fish, shellfish, seaweeds, riparian sedges, those kind of foods.

And yet, that's exactly what too many anthropologists are still clinging on to. "We probably got those through a terrestrial diet somehow." At the same time when WHO today observes that somewheres between 1 and 2 billion (billion!) Homo sapienses suffer from Iodine deficiency, causing endemic goiter many places (this is why you have Iodine in the salt from your local supermarket, Westerners). Upwards of two sevenths of the entire human population, this increasingly agricultural ape for the last 10.000 years, are nowhere near the correct intake of Iodine. Most likely because today, most of us do eat terrestrials foods and not aquatic as we were arguably adapted to originally (this because agriculture makes it a lot easier to produce a buck load of carbohydrates and animal fats and proteines, obviously).

Not parsimonous at all to keep clinging onto a fable about the human brain having fed off a fully terrestrial diet for five million years of biological evolution. It's downright stupid to keep considering that option, when you see the clear trend in the mammalian kingdom of e.g. a zebra on the African savannah having a brain of some 350 grams, while a dolphin of roughly the same size, which have adapted to sea food across 50 million years, have a brain of some 1800 grams. That's the mammalian trend; The wetter, the smarter.

So basically, if you guys want to better your brain, eat seafood.

Just this one aquatic ape argument is enough to end this bizarre wall from contemporary anthropology, especially when coupled with all the other observations pointing to humans being the 'wet' ape. Furlessness, upright bipedalism, speech, habitat affinity (beaches, right?), bathing affinity, the shape and function of the human spleen and kidneys, swimming and diving potential, and yes, the benefits of water birth. Just this one brain argument is enough to take it home and is well over a decade old, and yet it doesn't seem to penetrate the ivory towers of Academia. For seemingly no scientific reason. It's stupid, stupid, stupid, and demeaning to their own field.

People compare this idea a lot with Alfred Wegener's suggestion about continental drift (and I agree). This was proposed in 1913, not by a geologist, but by a meteorologist, and that was probably most of the reason why geology didn't really see the major point in pursuing the evidence for such a stupid concept for close to half a century. Mostly because of social crap coupled with fear of ruining their personal carreers. When they finally did, when those submarines filmed the bottom of the Atlantic ocean and saw the parting sea floor with hot lava coming up from the Earth's core, they knew that damn weatherman had been spot on, and they were embarassed and started to babble that they knew it all along. And I'm sure that when anthropology one day will finally act right towards their own giants (where one of them is past 90 now), they'll say the same crap.

(Breathing in ...)

mandyandhumpback.jpg


(Just to add some imagery of this perceived aquatic ape ...)
 
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Beautiful picture, of two types beings I love the most :) - Actually I enjoy the memory of being close to one of them :)

[observing a globe finding a nice spot close(r) to sea..]
 
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Hey Chris,

I'm with Trux on this one. I simply don't know enough about anthropology to justify judging it. Now one thing though I'd like to remark with respect to you previous post is the way you talk about current theories. I don't think it is very useful if you call them "stupid", "ignorant" whatever. If you are serious about it, I would recommend you use some more civil type of argumentation, i.e. statement and counter-statement with respective evidence.
 
Gotta tell you, it's difficult, 'cause being civil doesn't seem to make a heap of a difference in this debate. I see these key proponents (Elaine Morgan, Marc Verhaegen, Algis Kuliukas, etc.) being exactly that, civil, while making perfect sense, and all they get back is being harangued as pseudoscientists.
15 years I've witnessed what I perceive as a grusome character assassination on truly great thinkers by members of a scientific field, who should bloody well know better. And that is so truly depressing, 'cause one get the sensation that we haven't moved a single step since Copernicus.
And apparently I need to vent about that on some diving website.

long%20story.png
 
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Chris are you aware of the work of Thomas Kuhn?

His field of study is science itself and the way scientific ideas progresses. The history of science is often presented as a linear progression with new ideas being tested validated and accepted then leading onto the next ideas. If scientists were all rational and reasonable people then maybe this would happen in practice.

but contrary to this notion, what Kuhn observed was something more like a series of revolutions, with each generation refusing to accept new ideas until they literally are forced to.

Essentially when the previous generation all die, then a new idea is accepted by the younger generation who's careers and egos aren't totally bound up in the old ideas.

Personally I accept the aquatic ape theory. I'm no more of an expert than others commenting on this thread but I don't believe we should leave having opinions to the experts, or wait until the issue is 'decided' or until we become 'experts' too. (although it's refreshing to be on a forum where opinionated ignorance isn't the norm! lol!)

I feel it's important to get involved with whatever understanding you have. We can all contribute somethinga nd often it takes an outsider to bring a fresh perspective on things (as in your example of continental drift). I know my views are relatively ill-informed and am quite prepared for them to be proven wrong - I don't want to be one of those dinosaurs holding up scientific progress!

I've read some of the other forums you refer to and those scientists can be an irrational, bitchy and childish lot quite frankly! Perhaps we just need to wait a while and give the idea time to be accepted by the collective mind - it can be a slow and painful process, but I think it will happen.

Thanks for keeping this debate alive.
 
I think it is simpler - nobody of us is anthropologist here. ...

Were we once aquatic apes? | sciencefocus.com

Neither is he. Darren seems to be wearing the priestly garb in this article.

As for myself, I find much general support for the AAT (shoreside living amongst ancient hominids), but also some striking differences in interpretation.

I research ARC theory, which differs from Marc & Elaine's AAT theories substantially but has much overlap.

DDeden
 
I'm just gonna share a thought I can't get out of my head these days. I'm not offering a scientific argument at all here, just an image or something.

Marc Verhaegen and others conclude in their variation of Alister Hardy & Elaine Morgan's 'aquatic ape' that humans originally evolved in flooded woodland, and have coined the term 'aquarboreal apes' for its sake. I'm still personally confused about what that's based on, but it seems to match the contemporary flora and fauna associated with most African hominids, eg. Australopithecus, etc., at least to my understanding. Most of those old East and South African fossils have been found along with fossilizations of animal and plant species, that clearly indicates a wooded area and not grassland (and those hominids are lodged in then coastal deposits, but not that it's a finite aquatic argument, 'cause species just fossilize much easier in such deposits).

Ok, so we might've originally evolved in flooded woodland, seasonally or all year flooded. Not on grasslands or the current 'mosaic' variation, and not necessarily along ocean or river coasts, at least originally (or though Verhaegen lists the Tethys Sea as a possible region for semi-aquatic hominids). It's a valid possibility and seems supported by fossil evidence.

Then my head for some reason switches to the entertainment industry, and specifically those old Tarzan features from the 1930's with Johnny Weissmuller and Maureen O'Sullivan. No, hear me out. This fictional Tarzan fella is still a term for the archetype noble savage human being, an author's image on our animal origin, originally in the wake of Darwin's works. (Some even see Tarzan and his mate Jane as a Darwinian variation of the Biblical Genesis with Tarzan and Jane as a sort of Adam and Eve, the author Burroughs being an evolutionist, but what ever).

This 1912 character became so popular that we probably all grew up with Weissmuller's peculiar yell in our ears. Then through the 20th century, you could say that the Tarzan image moved from the jungle to the grasslands for a while (because the key fossils are found on what today is the African Savannah), while Elaine Morgan's contributions insisted to include the image of Jane (and later "Boy") on equal footing, while also moving this representational family down to water's edge.
But reading Verhaegen et al now, I just can't help but think that 'Tarzan and Jane of the jungle' might be making a comeback. It also puzzles me a bit (and this is not a scientific argument at all, it may be completely random), that in this popular Weissmuller-version of this scenario (twelve feature films), Hollywood looked around for a 1930's man to epitomize this mind image of the original (white) ape man. And for some reason, they chose an Olympic swimmer. And also in some of these old films, there are these really long segments showing the characters swimming about in their perceived jungle paradise. I mean, this aquatic ape "nonsense" were 30 years away in being presented by Hardy, and yet these Hollywood producers somewheres in their reptilian brains coupled the idea of an original paradise both with climbing trees and ... swimming.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMj5Ztme-ZI]Tarzan finds a Son - 1939 - YouTube[/ame]

Anyway, I just find that a little puzzling in this context. And swimmers (and freedivers) do strike me as the naturally perfect proportioned (="beautiful") human beings (especially the women, but I'm biased there). Then the Burroughs/Hollywood image of humanity's 'original paradise' in the African jungle, coupled with the Hardy, Morgan and Verhaegen contributions, might still not be too far off.

What ever. It's just a movie.

Siku, thank you for that reference to Thomas Kuhn, that helped. Maybe we just have to wait for that damn paradigm shift. Either that or the whole thing is indeed a wild goose chase and will dissipate in time (it's not bloody likely at this point, but ...).
 
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