At a roadblock, and need some advice

[pdabill]

I am fairly new to freediving and love what I have experienced so far. However, I am at a roadblock that I am having trouble getting past. I took a freediving course a few weeks ago and learned a tremendous amount. Unfortunately one of the things I learned is that I cannot equalize with my head below my chest (i.e. inverted). When descending I need to dive down a few feet, bring my head above my chest and equalize, dive down (headfirst) a few more feet, then bring my head above my chest to equalize, etc. I can make it down, but painstakingly slow. With a rope it is not as bad because I can pull myself down with my head above my chest pretty efficiently and have been able to get down close to 100' this way. But I cannot practice the proper technique.

The other aspect of my situation is that I have only been using the valsalva technique to equalize. I am hoping that if I can learn the frenzel technique that I will be able to equalize inverted due to the theoretically larger burst of air I will be able to achieve. The problem is that after hours and hours of practicing I have not yet had success with frenzel. I am not sure if I ever will. I have been following the step by step direction by Fattah. I am stuck in step 6 - learning to control the epiglottis and soft palate independently.

I recently went to an ENT to discuss these issues and the only thing I learned there is that there is nothing unusual with my anatomy. CT scans were taken revealing normal eustachian tubes, sinuses, etc.

Does anyone have any ideas or things I can try? I am dying to overcome these issues so I can dive inverted and grow with this sport.

 

[efattah]

How many hours have you spent practicing step 6?

In many cases it may take as much as 20 hours or more of continuous practice to get past that.

Most people try for half an hour and then give up and ask for surgery.

 

[pdabill]

Wow eric, thanks for putting things in perspective. I have put in many hours, but not even close to 20 on step 6 yet. Your response has given me extra motivation to keep on practicing.

 

[cdavis]

Frenzel is the best single thing to do. Also, what has worked for several buddies of mine with a similar problem is sudafed. Works like magic for some. Think of it as a bridge while you learn frenzel. Also, different people find different paths to frenzel. I had the same issues as you, just could not figure out Eric's paper, for all it's super detailed. Something somebody posted in another thread opened the door for me and suddenly it was easy. Search "frenzel" and read all the relevant threads(there's a lot). You may find something that makes it simple. You will also learn lots of other stuff, some of which will be useful.

Connor

 

[freedivinmike]

If all else fails after working hard at it you can do as I do when line diving and go down feet first. It really is quite enjoyable (like free falling) and is much easier to equalize. I have been to 130 ft doing this. Also if diving deep head first it helps for me to go down at a 45 degree angle as I can clear much easier that way than straight down which is damn near impossible for me. I am throwing these out there for you to try as a couple more possibilities. Good luck!

 

[Giobbi]

Im curious about why you cant equalize, with head first. For example if your start right below surface? Can you do it on land, standing up? I think you should try it step by step from atmosphere 1 - surface.
Lots of ppl starts way to late equalizing. If you can do it on land, you should test it just below the surface, 0.5-1m, or valsalva right from start, just as you are about to desend.

Other thing you could try is to clear the sinused, try Neti, clearing your "ways" with saltwater, did wonders with mine..

Good luck.

 

[Giobbi]

About frenzel;

1. Hold your breath.
2. Try to make your mouth as full of air as you can, closed.
Then push you tounge, fast as hell upward to the palate. If that makes some air go out of the nose your frenzleing - just pinch the nose for equalizing, getting your ear popping. You can move the jaw as you wish, just keep your mouth shut. : )

My 2 c..

 

[JennyWren]

About frenzel;

1. Hold your breath.
2. Try to make your mouth as full of air as you can, closed.
Then push you tounge, fast as hell upward to the palate. If that makes some air go out of the nose your frenzleing - just pinch the nose for equalizing, getting your ear popping. You can move the jaw as you wish, just keep your mouth shut. : )

My 2 c..

That's half of frenzeling. The first half, which some people have trouble with, is bring up the air to fill your mouth with. On land you can do this as in valsalva, by opening the airway between mouth and lungs, but deep this doesn't work due to the pressure and decreased lung volume.

You shouldn't have to move your tongue "fast as hell", I find a gentle lift does the trick.

 

[sgnips]

hmm someone is messing up frenzel and mouthfill descriptions... :head

anyway:
PDABILL, does anyone look at you while diving?
tell your buddies to refer about your head position: if your eyes aim to the bottom, then you are stretching your neck and the same is for your tubes:rcard;
try keeping your head straight (the position you usually keep it while WALKING), it will surely help a bit (and luckily solve, let's hope...)

 

[Giobbi]

hmm someone is messing up frenzel and mouthfill descriptions... :head

Ah, thanks for correcting me sgnips. I always thought that was frenzle. Could you give me a good description on how its done ?

 

[Giobbi]

hmm someone is messing up frenzel and mouthfill descriptions... :head

Ah, then i missunderstood the Frenzel procedure. Could you describe how its done? I think i read somewere (not sure) that if you could "pack" thru your nose you probably could master the frenzel method?

thx.

 

[sgnips]

Ah, then i missunderstood the Frenzel procedure. Could you describe how its done? I think i read somewere (not sure) that if you could "pack" thru your nose you probably could master the frenzel method?
thx.

here is Eric's document on mouthfill, the "Frenzel-diaphragmatic" paragraph is what you're looking for
http://spearo.republika.pl/frenzel.doc

packing thru your nose is an exercise to practice glottis and soft palate separation
:martial
bye

 

[azapa]

you must watch the long video embedded in this page. it is very good. practice in front of the mirror. If you can "flare" your nose above your nostrils, nose pinched and mouth open. you've got it.

Doc's Diving Medicine Home Page

 

[Giobbi]

Great tip azapa. Indeed long video but good.

 

[willloomy]

on that video is the bobing the Adams apple thing Frenzel?

 

[Giobbi]

Yes, and as i understand it, equalizing (not with vasalva/pressure from lungs) with open mouth would be frenzel? As i described eariler (without open mouth)?

 

[azapa]

the open mouth bit is to check you are not cheating and using Valsalva, nothing more.

 

[rnsaicic]

pdabill,
I could not restrain from laughing while reading your post, as I had exactly the same problem (in every detail) as you last summer, when I took a course on free-diving in Egipt. Well, it took me not 6 hours, but 6 months to learn Frentzel manoeuvre (apparently I am not particularly talented), but it works now. Before, I could not equalize with my head down even on dry (I mean out of water); now it works on land, it works in the pool, and I hope that it will also work in the sea, which I will test soon. So just be persistent and eventually it will come.
Radomir

 

[Phil C]

Hi there pdabill

Sounds like I had the same problem as you, I used to Valsalva and as soon as my head was lower than my feet I couldn't equalise. Learning to Frenzel has solved the problem for me. I can now equalise head down with my head in virtually any position and have taught a number of people who were similarily challenged.

Eric's document gives an excellent breakdown of the Frenzel process, however many people may find the level of detail daunting and turn off. Below is a simplified approach that you might like to try.


Squeeze the nostrils closed

• Close the Epiglottis (automatically occurs if you hold your breath with mouth open or go to pick up a heavy object)
• Place the Soft Palate in the neutral position (the neutral position is where you exhale and air goes out mouth and nose simultaneously – you may need to practice to figure out the feel of when it is the right position although many people do this part automatically)
• Seal the tongue against the roof of the mouth, tip touching the back of your upper teeth
• Flex the back of the tongue up and forward.

If you don’t get it right away don’t give up – it can take time to get it right. When you do get it right you will feel/see (in a mirror) your nose flare above your fingers and you may equalise. With practice you will rapidly learn how to clear crisply.

God luck,

Phil

 

[trux]

the open mouth bit is to check you are not cheating and using Valsalva, nothing more.

In fact not, the open mouth does not help you with detecting which method you use. I did the same mistake in the past, but it is sufficient to look at the physiology to see it is false: there are two principal "valves" in the airway - the soft palate, and the epiglottis. While the epiglottis closes the throat (the access to lungs), the soft palate redirects the air either to the nose or the mouth cavities, or keeps the air running to both of them if in neutral position. So when you redirect the air to the nose when doing Valsalva, you can do it easily with mouth open, just as you can exhale only through nose with your mouth open. The following diagram from Jome's Frenzel document nicely demonstrates it:

​

To find out whether you equalize with Frenzel or Valsalva, you best do it in the following way:

Take you breath and hold it. Open your mouth and create overpressure with your diaphragm against closed throat so that you assure the epiglottis is indeed closed. If you accidentally release the epiglottis during the equalizing (as you need to do for Valsalva), with the overpressure you would notice it quickly (unlike if there were no pressure). Keep on with the pressure against epiglottis, and try equalizing with Frenzel now. You may need to close the mouth for it, since it may be easier (but it is possible with an open mouth too). If you manage equalizing without feeling that the pressure from lungs broke through the epiglottis, you are doing indeed Frenzel.

Another method to verify it is emptying your lungs to the very maximum you can, even making couple of reverse packs, and then trying to equalize. If you still can do it, you are most likely doing Frenzel (unless you cheated and were not entirely empty).