Bands advise

[Yasser Silveira]

150cm speargun with 200x8mm shaft can I use 2x19mm or 2x18mm?


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[Bill McIntyre]

I don't know why Euro gum makers use those massive bands that few people can stretch. Some people doing pool testing report that you would be a lot better off with two 14.5 mm bands cut to 360% or more stretch.

 

[landshark sa]

I suppose if you have the arm length and strength you can use 18mm+ bands but I agree with Bill. I'd rather go for 3 or even 4 x 16mm bands. For sure will take bit longer to load but you will have a lot less bruising going on on your chest.

 

[Yasser Silveira]

Hi, I have Picasso Bluewater 150cm with 8mm shaft and 3x16mm bands. Now I have strong recoil that I have to shoot with two hands, so I am asking if its possible just with two bands like 18mm or 19mm get good shoot with acurance and range.


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[landshark sa]

The thing is you are trying to keep the same power with different bands, this won't make the recoil any better as the energy and thus the recoil the bands produce will be more or less the same. The only way reduce the recoil with same amount of energy is to totally reconfigure the gun.

You can add weight to the gun. Experimenting with some strategically placed weights could yield some good results especially if you experience a lot of muzzle whip. However, this could also possibly upset the balance and buoyancy.

OR you can possibly add an after market roller head which will significantly reduce the recoil but if you use 16mm bands on the roller you will most probably lose a bit of power compared to your current 3x16mm set-up. Also, unless you have very long arms, a 150cm roller gun will be pretty difficult to load.

 

[Yasser Silveira]

Thanks a lot, so if I change for 2x18mm or 2x16mm with more coefficient like 360% I will keep the range? Other problem I don't have very accurance!


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[Bill McIntyre]

Your gun is inaccurate because it overpowered, and it probably has less range than it could have since you can't stretch those thick bands far enough so that they can accelerate the shaft sufficiently before they have shrunk back to their unstretched length. In the US, most big guns have traditionally been powered by multiple 16 mm bands stretched to 350 percent, but there seems to be a change in thinking lately. Some gun makers are recommending using 14 or 14.5 mm small interior diameter bands (The normal ID is 2 mm, but these have a 1 mm hole in the middle) and then stretching them as much as 360 to 380 percent. You don't get as much of an initial jolt to cause recoil, but the band gets to act on the shaft over a longer distance before it is fully relaxed.

I don't have much personal experience with this idea but I'm in the process of trying it out. I recently purchased an Abelian 120. It has 123 cm of band stretch and shoots an 8mm x 150mm shaft. Based on experience with my American guns, I would have thought that this gun needed three 16 mm bands to push that shaft. But the gun came with two 14.5 mm small ID bands stretched to about 370 percent and seems to be very accurate and can shoot fish out to about 18 feet (6 meters). There is a guy in Florida who does extensive pool testing of guns, and he said that adding a third 14.5 mm band to this gun actually resulted in decreased range and accuracy. It doesn't seem intuitive, but maybe its true. He also reported very poor results with guns using the very thick 18 to 19 mm bands typically furnished with Euro guns.

I have an 57.5" Wong gun that I've always used three 16 mm bands on. Based on a recommendation from a guy who has a similar gun, I recently put on two 14.5 mm small ID bands stretched to 360 percent. I'm afraid I haven't found a pool to test it in and I haven't even shot at a fish, but when I test fired it at a piece of kelp a few days ago, the shaft sure did seem very fast and I had negligible recoil. Maybe I've been doing it all wrong.

BTW, a 200mm shaft sounds very long for a 150mm gun. Do you have a lot of shaft overhang? A shorter shaft would be lighter and reduce recoil.

 

[Yasser Silveira]

Thanks a lot


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[Pinniped72]

I agree with all of the above, two 18mm bands, is just agro to load and way OTT, the 14.5mm small ID is great stuff, If I ever go back to multiple bands, it is the way I would go for sure. Power is important but its easy to get tempted to sacrifice accuracy for power, a bit like putting a Ferrari engine in your typical family car, your gonna either shake the car apart or spin off at the first corner. Anyway good luck and dive safe

 

[Yasser Silveira]

Thanks for everything I'll try 14mm then I tell something about it


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[Yasser Silveira]

Two 16mm is enough to shoot a 8mm shaft? I'm thinking about to use just two bands.


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[Andrew Fogarty]

A Riffe devote would advise 3 x 16mm for 8mm shaft on a blue water gun, which is a standard setup for for range and penetration on large game fish like tuna. I am now using Salvimar acid green rubber which can stretch to 380% and has reduced recoil on my biggest rig, a Beuchat Carbon 125 (very light)with a 7mm spear. The only advantage of 19mm bands is loading speed (one band) not normally an issue with blue water hunting. For me, using composite band stretch can improve accuracy, in that i mean the short band is loaded to the first notch and maxed to almost over stretched with the other band loaded to the back notches having less tension but a longer contraction. I run 380% then 360% on the beuchat 125 and this has reduced the jolt and improved accuracy because the energy transmitted to the spear is spread over time. Just a theory that seems to work on this particular gun.

 

[doyenofcastle]

Your gun is inaccurate because it overpowered, and it probably has less range than it could have since you can't stretch those thick bands far enough so that they can accelerate the shaft sufficiently before they have shrunk back to their unstretched length. In the US, most big guns have traditionally been powered by multiple 16 mm bands stretched to 350 percent, but there seems to be a change in thinking lately. Some gun makers are recommending using 14 or 14.5 mm small interior diameter bands (The normal ID is 2 mm, but these have a 1 mm hole in the middle) and then stretching them as much as 360 to 380 percent. You don't get as much of an initial jolt to cause recoil, but the band gets to act on the shaft over a longer distance before it is fully relaxed.

I don't have much personal experience with this idea but I'm in the process of trying it out. I recently purchased an Abelian 120. It has 123 cm of band stretch and shoots an 8mm x 150mm shaft. Based on experience with my American guns, I would have thought that this gun needed three 16 mm bands to push that shaft. But the gun came with two 14.5 mm small ID bands stretched to about 370 percent and seems to be very accurate and can shoot fish out to about 18 feet (6 meters). There is a guy in Florida who does extensive pool testing of guns, and he said that adding a third 14.5 mm band to this gun actually resulted in decreased range and accuracy. It doesn't seem intuitive, but maybe its true. He also reported very poor results with guns using the very thick 18 to 19 mm bands typically furnished with Euro guns.

I have an 57.5" Wong gun that I've always used three 16 mm bands on. Based on a recommendation from a guy who has a similar gun, I recently put on two 14.5 mm small ID bands stretched to 360 percent. I'm afraid I haven't found a pool to test it in and I haven't even shot at a fish, but when I test fired it at a piece of kelp a few days ago, the shaft sure did seem very fast and I had negligible recoil. Maybe I've been doing it all wrong.

BTW, a 200mm shaft sounds very long for a 150mm gun. Do you have a lot of shaft overhang? A shorter shaft would be lighter and reduce recoil.View attachment 42013

in the aballen how long the overhang out of the stainless muzzle?does it matter if your spear +/- 10 cm from that length ?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

in the aballen how long the overhang out of the stainless muzzle?does it matter if your spear +/- 10 cm from that length ?

My Abbelan shaft has 23 cm of overhang. I doubt that it makes much difference. For instance, Riffe sells his guns with shafts that have huge overhangs, but a friend of mine uses a Riffe Island with a shaft so short that the slip tip adapter is barely off there muzzle, and he does very well. Its at least partly a matter of personal preference and what you are used to.

 

[doyenofcastle]

My Abbelan shaft has 23 cm of overhang. I doubt that it makes much difference. For instance, Riffe sells his guns with shafts that have huge overhangs, but a friend of mine uses a Riffe Island with a shaft so short that the slip tip adapter is barely off there muzzle, and he does very well. Its at least partly a matter of personal preference and what you are used to.View attachment 42467

another point of discussion is the spear material ,I have used 7 mm hardened SS spear (salvimar wired) and 7mm RA quench steel ,both under same forces , 3.4:1 elongation of 16 mm rubber same length ,the SS whip and miss all fish in front me ,RA spear shot like laser all fish even at 5 m ,I think quench tough spear can be uploaded by more power with out any risk

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I guess I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm not familiar with the term "quenched steel." Is that what I call a South African plated shaft?

If so, I've never noticed any difference between the plated shafts and my stainless shafts in terms of whipping.

I do recall that the guy who imports Abbelan guns told me that he got them without shafts since Euro stainless shafts "sucked." Maybe that's what he meant. My American stainless shafts don't seem to have a whipping problem.

 

[doyenofcastle]

I guess I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm not familiar with the term "quenched steel." Is that what I call a South African plated shaft?

If so, I've never noticed any difference between the plated shafts and my stainless shafts in terms of whipping.

I do recall that the guy who imports Abbelan guns told me that he got them without shafts since Euro stainless shafts "sucked." Maybe that's what he meant. My American stainless shafts don't seem to have a whipping problem.

you are right but in middle east the major supplier of spear is European and the main problems is the shaft whipping ,all US shaft very expensive to buy

 

[doyenofcastle]

I guess I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm not familiar with the term "quenched steel." Is that what I call a South African plated shaft?

If so, I've never noticed any difference between the plated shafts and my stainless shafts in terms of whipping.

I do recall that the guy who imports Abbelan guns told me that he got them without shafts since Euro stainless shafts "sucked." Maybe that's what he meant. My American stainless shafts don't seem to have a whipping problem.

you are right and the guy who imported is smart ,why its whipping and easily get overpowered even they advertising its super hard this I don't know ,in abellan when pulling the band do u notice the reel line is squeezed between the band and the muzzle ? in pictures is clear ,if so does it affect moving of the spear ?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I'm not sure I understand the question. The shooting line goes under that metal wing and then passes over the shaft to hold it down, then through a groove in the muzzle. When the bands are not loaded, the line does touch the front of the front band, but its not between the band and the muzzle. Then when the band is loaded, its pulls away and doesn't even touch the line in the groove. Maybe these photos will help.

 

[doyenofcastle]