Barrel Flex !!

[Mark Laboccetta]

Originally posted by shaneshac
HMMMMM!!!!

So its safe to say that the T20 is not all its cracked up to be. Seems to be a reoccurring problem with Omer products these days.

Preface:

Happy holidays to you, as Ebineezer Ccrooge would say here in America Buhumbug! He didn't believe in Christmas and you don't believe in us

I turned on my computer today and was surprised to read your e-mail. Bashing equipment or manufacturers isn't the best way to have a discussion agree? :naughty

If there were ten million of us freedivers and spearfishers it might be different but since it's not the music industry and we're not just bashing another new band let me assure you OMER is not the Evil Empire since this is our sport too and we're the first to admit it if there was a problem in production of a new product

Well, after following the rest of the thread at I read that you think good things about our bands. I guess after 20 years at least you think Omer can at least make bands Hey hey! 20 more years and maybe we'll be able to make a spear barb!!

Excuse the sarcasm but if I didn't help Omer with a lot of the consultation on some products like the Alluminum reels, the wetsuits, a few guns including the T-20 it might be easier for me to swallow my pride. I'm also going to add on a personal note after shooting plenty of world record fish that if some piece of equipment doesn't cut it I don't stand behind it.

Sorry for preaching but if I weren't a diver myself it might be different.

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

T-20 1992-1999 version

So, the lesson for today is T-20 and issues to the concerns the readers and members of Deeper Blue expressed:

This is a picture of the 1994 Master speargun with the T-20 handle. At this stage it had already been in production for three years:

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

T-20 handle

This previous version of the T-20 handle that was used on the original T-20 gun (1992-1993), Master and MB-16/MB-30 line (1994-1999), and MB 2000 line (2000-2001) had a three piece mechanism with a cold forged stainless steel sear mechanism that was sensitive yet could take a heavy load because unlike contemporary and later Arbalete models the sear did not just pinch the sear and roll it off like many of them did and do today but it also had a square shape to hold ithe shaft very firmly in place even under heavy load which made it very desirable.

In addition it was produced with a mold and in production which obviously ensures complete precision consistency as opposed to say laser cutting them one by one:

Next I will show you the difference between this and a "pinch" style sear used to make a very sensitive trigger mechanism as in the Excalibur model:

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

Pinch style frictionless Sear

Just to give you an idea of the difference in shape, here is the sear used in our Alluminum gun which is basically the same in the Excalibur.

Notice how there is a "hump" on the front edge of the sear which makes the shaft roll of with less friction. I think it's hard to beat as long as you never plan to use more than one pair of 20mm or any other megabooster bands:

There's another important function with this style sear, the oval holes are for the line release so this serves as a sear as well as a line release. If someone say was to put more power than reccomended (no need because it would make the gun recoil anyway) then the line release angle woulch change a bit too which is undesirable. Conclusion, with a limit of a single power band of any strength and thickness (most euro guns) this is generally the most desirable type of mechanism because it causes the pull of the trigger very little friction and high sensibility thus avoiding any possibility of movement of aim in the gun. It's also why serious competitors love these:

 

[shaneshac]

Dear Mark,

As the owner of an Omer Ocean Mimetic 5mm, Omer Bat 30 fins, Omer Abyss Exclusive, and ex owner of an Omer Alluminum 100 I feel I can have a bit of a whinge if some products in a makes range, are not up to scratch.


My Omer Alluminum (first version)was corroded in less than 5 months time. The muzzle just fell apart. I would have got the new version in exchange as I loved the gun (Murat can confirm) but it left a bad taste in my mouth so I opted for Picasso as I have never bought anything from that make.

THe T20 trigger has received poor reviews in Italy as well as the problems caused to a couple of DB members. It probably is a great gun but just teething problems that most people dont want to have associated with such a well known brand name.

I also had problems when trying to use different make of bands on the gun. THe 16mm threads are supposed to be universal but neither Cressi, Beuchat or Metalsub bands would hold in the muzzle when loaded. It happened to 2 other friends of mine with the Excalibur2000 series.

If I pay 200 euros for a speargun this is not acceptable and I try and let people know. On a different note I have commented on the BAT fins and how I like them.

This is not about dissing a make but about offering real life information to spearos who want to find the best products on the market. Unfortunatrely you are at the receiving end of this particular one, but so have Jay Riffe, Rob Allen, and a host of other manufacturers.

Hope this makes sense and most ppl who have read my posts will know by now that I always acquire the best equipment. If its not up to my liking I let ppl know simple as that.

Shane

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

New T-20 handle

At this point you must be wondering why I keep beating around the bush with non pertinent info instead of addressing the issues mentioned earlier by the members of this forum. I wanted to outline the philosphy as it began behind this type of handle (the T-20) and it's components so you see that it is really much like a hybrid of American style square notch mechanisms and Euro style sensivitve mechanisms combing some of the positive attributes of each:

Here is a blueprint picture of the new T-20 handle version 2003 and newer. Omer Windows Millenium XP Look at the differences between it and the previous T-20 version.

1.Omer changed the angle of the handle by so many degrees to make it more maneuverable and stable when coupled with a heavier gun like the Master America for example. This improves aiming and it doesn't put as much weight on the hand for prolonged periods.

2.The butt is redesigned to be more low profile to improve sighting. Some people like me still preferred the old one but I guess the overall market preference determines the final say in Omer not mine.

3. Integrated pivoting line release independent of the trigger mechanism. The biggest problem of the old version was that it dod not have a line release but instead used a pinch.

4. Reel bracket. Integrated reel bracket to fit Omer alluminum reels only

5.Color. Instead of red trigger parts grey is less visible.

6. Construction. The new handle is a bit heavier because it is more robust and slightly larger.

7. My favorite improvement. Above the line release the entrance for the tail of the shaft was enlarged considerably so that the line connected to the back of the shaft wouldn't frey against the sides of the shaft entrance weakening the shooting line. No abrasion problems with shafts larger than 6.5mm with thick monofilament or other shooting line of 2mm thickness or so. Many times on big fish the shooting line is stressed considerably at the back of the shaft. I have incurred a few losses because of it

 

[shaneshac]

So why were these problems that have been highlighted, not addressed before launching?

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

T-20 line release

Originally posted by aydýn
Murat another problem comes with the T20 is,
if you tightly make your line,the line releasing notch(eðer ipi çok ama çok gergin yaparsan ip býrakma dili þiþi yukarýya itiyor buda tetiði çok sertleþtiriyor,ÞÝÞ KOLAY KOLAY BIRAKILMIYOR) rise the spear and make some difficulty and hardening of the trigger release..Please try this with a little pressure of the line releasing notch then pull the trigger and another guy will try to pull the spear out..
Sorry for the English and faults,I think you can understand...

I understand what you are saying here Aydyn but I still beg to differ.

Obviously you are right about one point. When the shaft is not under band load the line release mechanism is free to roll since it is THE SHAFT that holds the line release pivot mechanism down when it is loaded with the arm in the line holding position. Hypotethically if you pulled on the line release lever it would lift the spear up. But, why would you pull on the line release lever if the spear wasn't engaged and the bands were loaded? What useful purpose would it serve while hunting?

When the power bands are pulling the spearshaft during the shooting phase any minor fraction of a second tendency of the line release pivot to lift the spearshaft would be voided since it is the wishbone in the shaft that guide the spear out of the muzzle of the speargun. The bands pull the spear out of the muzzle like a sled with 20 dogs in front of it in the direction they want to go!

I understand what you are saying but it's not as if the line release pivot lifts a rocket out of it's storage unit (the shaft) and prepares it for lift off and the rocket take off.

During the shooting phase as the shaft leaves the trigger mechanism housing pulled by the bands as soon as it passes the line release pivot the line is simply released as the arm lever swings forward, not much more to that phenomenon than that I'm afraid

Make some tests in the water shooting at fish or at a target for accuracy, it's the best way to get true results. Any other strange behavior like the hardening of the trigger you mention is incomprehensible and might be do to the original T-20 parts that as you've read need to replaced with new parts from OMER free of charge.

Shane, I just read your message, thank you for your sincerity. I beat you today and sent more messages than you!!!

The Alluminum indeed did have a host of problems that were obviously later corrected just like the first version of the new T-20 mechanism and if you bought one and it got screwed up because of electrolisis I would be happy to make sure Omer followed through with the replacement if you want to send it back and if they haven't done so already. That is our job.

Lastly, I'd be glad to send a T-20 handle to anyone of the Deeper Blue mentors to inspect and compare to the others of the competition so they can report they're unbiased comparisons and opinion. Sorry for dragging this out but as I said I have a vested interest with the product at hand and if I see something that I don't agree with and can offer an explanation or correction I think it's for the better overall education and continuity of the thread and it's followers

Kind regards,

Mark Laboccetta
OMER USA

 

[Murat]

Well.. look how much post had been post in a few hours. Forgive me for spelling mistakes coz its the 2.20 am here (just finished homeworks) and bit sleepy and tired.

I am the loyal omer user here coz its the ONLY available brand here.What a shame ha... In a island like this....

Anyway all i can say is every product that i have bought from omer has some minor/major problems....I can tell few of the now.

First gun (MB 30/86). Very heavy for the size. The rail which lies on the front part of the gun (1/3 length i guess) totalll useless coz track itself is too width.Not nearly support the shaft. Handle is another problem. I know omer is so proud of that master series handle but i can't understand why they can not put even simple line release sytem for the newbies like me. bulky too..

Second buy: Plastic reel for above gun. The extremly thin white line is nothing but trouble, tangle around very easily not strong too. But the biggest problem is reel it self. Somehow it has intend stuck all the time. I guess the reason of this is air temp. Plastic may be effected. It is closed design too which not helps much.

Omer Knife: Rust easily but it can be cleaned easilt too, god thanx. Not a great lock design.

Omer moonlight elite: The most powerfull light that i had ever seen. No bad word for this, except it consumes the battery really quickly but thats why its powerfull...No pain no gain

Shafts: all omer shafts are bent really easily i don't like them all. But, 6.3mm shaft is very quick and accurate i like it for sargo (bream shooting) open areas.

Bands: I am big fan of omer Power 18mm really efficient powerfull easy to load bands...

T20: Well do i have to say more?

Omer Alluminium (secon edition) with plastic rings: Very smooth accurate nice gun. Only problem is gun become too negative and heavy when adding the reel. I guess its not ballasted for reel setup.

Omer Alluminium reeel (30): What can i say, it worked like a charm after that stupid troublemaker plastic reel. It operates realy smooth but still has problem. You can not adjust drag to much. Basically two option, very looosy, medium stiffness. No more no lock up or in between. Well if the omer fixed that i am glad to tell them to replace it with new one. Line is black on this and quite better than white one but still not very good.

Atoll float: Thats the float you want when hunting inshore, easy to drag, lots of pockets and rings, waterproof box too. Still has problem. It loose air from valves. I fixed that with a knife.

I can not say too much about 5mm mimetic ocean. Only used upper part and does not fit good due to size problem. But i saw that i take no or little water in it. Which i think good.

Rubber (elastic) weight belt. After i put it on it slide up down and left right. I put it tight but still happens. I couldn't understand what is the problem. I just put it 5kg on it.

Well those minor problems may cause from OMER is MASS producing brand. And i guess its the most seller in the world. That production speed may cause those minor or major problems.

 

[shaneshac]

Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Do you think that Omer is becoming too commercialised and losing a bit of its unique style/quality sonce Valerio Grassi left?

That is the general consensus in the Spanish and Italian forums I post in.

What sort of load is the new T20 mech designed to handle?

Apparently as you mentioned, the harder trigger pressure required to release the shafy is not going down too well with med spearos. As most of the fish caught over here are fast moving fish smaller than 5 kilos, a hard trigger causes hesitation on shots and fish get away (obviously once you get used to this it is OK)

THere are a number of spearos ABRI to name one, who swear by the old omer excalibur mech. Say it is much better than the new one. I cannot say as I have never used it, but what can YOU say about the differences between that one, the newer frictionless release trigger mech (found on the Alluminum) and the T20.

Shane

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

Today on Deeper Blue: Crossfire with Mark from Omer USA and Murat and Shane from DB

Originally posted by shaneshac
Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Do you think that Omer is becoming too commercialised and losing a bit of its unique style/quality sonce Valerio Grassi left? That is the general consensus in the Spanish and Italian forums I post in.

What sort of load is the new T20 mech designed to handle?
Apparently as you mentioned, the harder trigger pressure required to release the shafy is not going down too well with med spearos. As most of the fish caught over here are fast moving fish smaller than 5 kilos, a hard trigger causes hesitation on shots and fish get away (obviously once you get used to this it is OK)

THere are a number of spearos ABRI to name one, who swear by the old omer excalibur mech. Say it is much better than the new one. I cannot say as I have never used it, but what can YOU say about the differences between that one, the newer frictionless release trigger mech (found on the Alluminum) and the T20.

Shane

Hi Shane. I think this is a bit of a generalization but I will tell you my take on it and answer your question in three parts.

1. Actually every month I read Spanish Apnea and Italian Pescasub magazines and to me it seems the opposite judging by all the pictures I see of all the best Spanish and Italian divers using Omer and the entry level divers who send in their pictures who also have a big brand loyalty as they look at what the best divers use. Of course one could argue there's a conspiracy there too...

Valerio Grassi still makes guns today under the Sea-Tec brand and they're nice but they haven't shaken the industry. The tooling, production methods, human resources and marketing a bigger company has at its disposition for developing new products is one big advantage compared to what small producers have to work with. The advantage of a small artizanal production is the care and the finish of the product and attention to detail and the ability for the owner of the company to monitor each piece carefully and establish a one on one relationship with his or her client. Their disadvantage is that a limited budget doesn't allow for expensive modern production techniques, specialized molds, buying raw materials in quantities at much lower prices and access to the same tooling to name a couple factors. Again, I'm just sharing my opinion in a general sense and all these variables change mfg. to mfg. I have seen junk as well as works of art from small artizan productions just like I've seen production crap and awesome products from large Mfgs.

If Omer were only able to produce and sell 100 or 200 T-20's in a year they would cost a fortune. This is the reason the Master America indeed costs a pretty penny because its a limited production and the tooling is totally different. They tell us here in the USA 5 months before we can get them. On any given day a new gun idea could pop up from a well known diver Omer has relations with, prototypes can be developed, a batch of 50 can be sent out to 50 of its most trusted divers around the world and all the while using CAD, CNC machines, and it's engineering staff in the techical department solutions and innovations can be developed and a year later it can be out on the market. These are the differences.

There difference in quality control between a bigger company and say a small artizan manufacturer is mostly due to odds and it's rate of releasing new products. Put simply, an example would be if let's say 10% of a new speargun line is faulty because something "slipped by" in production. 1000 of them are put on the market immediately unnoticed:

That's one hundred spearguns that are in people's hands with a problem as opposed to someone who is making a 100 a year with the same 10% fault rate and only 10 that have given people trouble. In this case, just like the T-20 trigger mechanism those 10% or 100 that have had a problem are exchanged and taken care of by the factory anyway but you heard a lot more from them.

Personally I feel Omer takes more risks all the time being so innovative and coming out with so many new products for this simple reason that compared to say someone who changes a gun line or a fin line every three or four your margin for error with new products is much higher than sticking to "old faithful". That is sometimes the price you pay for innovation. You asked me a heavy question and I hope I gave you a heavier answer

2. Over here divers shoot fish bigger than 5Kg on a regular basis and the subtle difference in the trigger mechanism sensitivity is not a concern as much as it is in Europe. No one is forcing the divers to get it if they prefer the more sensitive Excalibur style mechanism to the heavy duty T-20. In our market I think divers will like the attributes of the T-20 more than in Europe considering it's considerably more sensitive than the doomestic brand guns. One of our OMER USA Team divers,17 time USA National Champion Bill Ernst told me the same. It has an index position safety which is another nice feature.

As far as load is concerned as you know Omer makes the 18mm Power band with a 66Kg (145lbs) rating. Next year we will be selling 18mm circular bands for people who wanted more power than 16mm circular bands so we know that divers might be putting as much as 132Kg (2x66's) of load on the T-20 without a problem. From my own personal experience I know the trigger mechanism can take much more than that although its intended to be used with Omer guns only which never come with more power than is needed to prevent recoil and undesired results upsetting the ballistics. I don't believe it serves a useful purpose to put anything more than 2 power bands on a 7mm shaft or less.

As for the last part of your question there are only two trigger mechanisms Omer makes and ever made, the Excalibur and the T-20 so I'm uncertain to any other reference of other versions of Excalibur mechanisms you make.

Murat, no offense to you my friend but you need to spend a little more time in the water and less on the keyboard evaluating your equipment. If you look at some of the best divers you will see that they all have ragged and used looking guns and ragged worn out mask and fins etc etc. They have found what's worked for them by relying on their experience over the years and chosen new pieces of equipment carefully so there is no surprise when they bought it weather it filled their need or requirement as desired.

Kind Regards,

Mark Laboccetta
OMER USA


.

 

[RabiDeath]

Mark!
I have enjoyed reading your posts. I think your fingers must be ragged, though! Keep it coming, guys like me love to hear from guys of your experience and credentials. Speaking of, if anyone is looking for anything other than advice from Mark, you better weigh in with some serious cojones..... Looking forward to another amazing OMER USA event next year in NC.

-Blake

 

[Murat]

Hey Mark,

I wish to spend more time in water too but those exams don't let me lately.Unfortunatelly i loosing valuable days:waterwork Anyway, i aslo think that those kinds of problems is normal for MASS production company. I am not trying to blame any manufacturer. Its even not wise to do so after that great service. The guys sending me new trigger mech from italy with Airmail. I am sure only airmail is tripple the price of triger mech. The problems that i had found on my gears annoyed me sometimes. But i fixed them myself or found a way to overcome this. I am just trying to say OMER makes those mistake while mass producing. You are right OMER is innovative, as i rememmber OMER is one of the first carbon gun mfg in europe after C4 may be. After that every mfg started to build carbon and kevlar spearguns. If nobody makes new products there is no way to other follow. OMER force other mfgs too to rise the standarts. My first gun was MB 30/86, well i don't liked it very much. May be as i newbie i expected too much from it or it was too much gun for me but after buying Alluminium, i said ok this "is" the gun. Its for sale now but if its on my hand there is no way to miss the fish if its in range.Deadly accurate, solid headshots even on sargos is not hard.

I just belive that as a "costumer" if we don't criticize new products and tell the problems, we don't have right to expect better products next year from omer. Isn't it?

 

[shaneshac]

Mark, Thanks for the info.

Have you met Alberto March and Marco Bardi?

How do they compare to the US spearos?

Is the OMer 18 circular rubber going to be sold in bulk as well?

Thanks

Shane

 

[Murat]

Originally posted by shaneshac

Have you met Alberto March and Marco Bardi?

How do they compare to the US spearos?

Come on Shane, you will get a warning for flaming the deeper blue haahahaa
rofl

 

[shaneshac]

Thanks for the info Rolando.

Its a pity we don't get more coverage of those guys here in europe.

What makes those guys so special?

Who sponsors them?

Who is the best blue water hunter?

Shane

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

Originally posted by RabiDeath
Mark!
I have enjoyed reading your posts. I think your fingers must be ragged, though! Looking forward to another amazing OMER USA event next year in NC.

-Blake

Hi Blake! I was going to go home for lunch today but I'm having fun chattin' it up with you guys.

If you're the Blake I'm thinking of that came to the BW Tournament in Hatteras let me again congratulate you on that 88lb amberjack you weighed in on the first day of the meet. You are still the :king of the biggest fish of the Hatteras tournament.

 

[Rolando]

Originally posted by shaneshac
Thanks for the info Rolando.

Its a pity we don't get more coverage of those guys here in europe.

What makes those guys so special?

Who sponsors them?

Who is the best blue water hunter?

Shane

Shane,

We are definetely straying away from the original topic, but I'll try to answer your questions. Guinovart is with Beuchat and Pelegrin has received assistance from OMER or at least most of his equipment is OMER.

"What makes those guys so special?"

Just one recent example, several weeks ago Guinovart was fishing in 95 feet of water. As he dove down to a particularly large rock, he preceeded to circle it completely searching for any groupers (Meros). Upon not sighting one, he then proceeds to ascend. During his climb upward at about 40 feet, he spots a grouper heading for the same rock he just circled. He then stops mid-way and descends again to the same rock...still on one breath hold. Upon re-reaching the bottom, he shoots a 22 pound grouper thru the gills and within minutes it's dead in the cooler...just one example

Picture of Guinovart;

 

[Murat]

Thats a very nice example Rolando.

I saw in alberto march video that he missed the fish (somehow unbelivable) and he load the gun again underwater. Chased the fish and shoot it again. Don't know much about depth....

 

[RabiDeath]

Rolando,
Don't mess with the Cubans! I read about him in the recent issue of Spearfishing magazine. I read that he really likes the deep stuff over 90 feet, that makes for a heck of a day.

Yeah, Mark same guy. We will be talking some more guys into it this year as well. Rolando, you game?