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big improvement in static apnea !!!! why????

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FreeRestriction

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May 23, 2009
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Breathing in a full breath utilizing the diaphram at normal speed and exhaling slowly over and over isnt a form of hyperventilation. Its a proper breathup. Thats a good way to oxygenate the body prior to a breath hold. The slow exhale also helps to slow the heart rate.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragmatic_breathing
 
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Simos

Simos

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Feb 15, 2009
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Breathing in a full breath utilizing the diaphram at normal speed and exhaling slowly over and over isnt a form of hyperventilation. Its a proper breathup. Thats a good way to oxygenate the body prior to a breath hold. The slow exhale also helps to slow the heart rate.

Diaphragmatic breathing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't be so sure - they might teach this in freediving courses but the truth is that any type of breathing which is deeper than normal could result in HV.

If you are taking in more air that you would with normal breathing, then you are HV right? It is possible to reaaaaally prolong the exhale and not end up HV (in courses they typically teach 2:1 breathing and similar patters for this reason) but you cannot guarantee you won't be HV unless you just breathe normally.

Slowing the heart down prior to the dive is also a bit debatable - in an ideal world you'd want your heart to NOT slow down prior to the dive (to make sure your body is as oxygenated as possible) but slow down once apnea has started.
 
F

FreeRestriction

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May 23, 2009
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Don't be so sure - they might teach this in freediving courses but the truth is that any type of breathing which is deeper than normal could result in HV.

If you are taking in more air that you would with normal breathing, then you are HV right? It is possible to reaaaaally prolong the exhale and not end up HV (in courses they typically teach 2:1 breathing and similar patters for this reason) but you cannot guarantee you won't be HV unless you just breathe normally.

Slowing the heart down prior to the dive is also a bit debatable - in an ideal world you'd want your heart to NOT slow down prior to the dive (to make sure your body is as oxygenated as possible) but slow down once apnea has started.

In the FII course (created by martin stepanek) i just took they teach closer to 3:1 with around a 10 second exhale. In my opinion an increased heart rate is no benefit because your only increasing the bodies demand for O2 in some way to establish an increased heart rate because you cant just tell your heart to beat faster for no reason. It increases due to oxygen demands. So at best youve done nothing in improvement. But then add in the fact that once the hold starts you have to then drop the heart rate and you end up negatively affecting the hold.
 
Simos

Simos

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Feb 15, 2009
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In the FII course (created by martin stepanek) i just took they teach closer to 3:1 with around a 10 second exhale. In my opinion an increased heart rate is no benefit because your only increasing the bodies demand for O2 in some way to establish an increased heart rate because you cant just tell your heart to beat faster for no reason. It increases due to oxygen demands. So at best youve done nothing in improvement. But then add in the fact that once the hold starts you have to then drop the heart rate and you end up negatively affecting the hold.

If you read again what I posted, I was not saying you should try to speed up your HR artificially, I was saying that it might not be optimal in the end to slow down your HR prior to the dive artificially.

Any way you cut it, deeper breathing that your body would naturally do could very easily result in at least some hyperventilation. I was diving for quite some time with the same technique and I am not even saying that it's a bad one, but you should be aware that it will possibly cause some HV that in some cases/situations could end up being quite significant.

I haven't trained for some time but if you asked me to do a max static, I'd probably still do a long breath up with deep breathing and 2:1 exhale/inhale or thereabouts, but that's just because the holds feel easier and I am used to diving like that.

If I was starting again, I wouldn't bother too much with any special type of breathing before a dive - just breathing normally is fine unless you have a strong reason to do otherwise.

If you are doing any kind of real-world diving you never have time to stop, close your eyes, focus, do a couple of minutes of 2:1 breathing etc anyway so in my opinion is best not too get too used to these long breathups and as you progress strive to be able to dive well and relax into your dive with minimal or no preparation at all.
 
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FreeRestriction

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May 23, 2009
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If you read again what I posted, I was not saying you should try to speed up your HR artificially, I was saying that it might not be optimal in the end to slow down your HR prior to the dive artificially.

Any way you cut it, deeper breathing that your body would naturally do could very easily result in at least some hyperventilation. I was diving for quite some time with the same technique and I am not even saying that it's a bad one, but you should be aware that it will possibly cause some HV that in some cases/situations could end up being quite significant.

I haven't trained for some time but if you asked me to do a max static, I'd probably still do a long breath up with deep breathing and 2:1 exhale/inhale or thereabouts, but that's just because the holds feel easier and I am used to diving like that.

If I was starting again, I wouldn't bother too much with any special type of breathing before a dive - just breathing normally is fine unless you have a strong reason to do otherwise.

If you are doing any kind of real-world diving you never have time to stop, close your eyes, focus, do a couple of minutes of 2:1 breathing etc anyway so in my opinion is best not too get too used to these long breathups and as you progress strive to be able to dive well and relax into your dive with minimal or no preparation at all.

But why wouldnt one have time to relax and do a breathup? Your sitting on the surface recovering from the previous dive and safetying for your buddies dive anyways. so why not breathup at the same time?
 
Simos

Simos

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Feb 15, 2009
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But why wouldnt one have time to relax and do a breathup? Your sitting on the surface recovering from the previous dive and safetying for your buddies dive anyways. so why not breathup at the same time?

Well I didn't mean line diving but let's take that as an example - you are recovering and watching your buddy and trying to get into your 2:1 breathing etc. All of a sudden your buddy is in trouble and you need to dive down to get him - you can't exactly say 'hold on I haven't done my breath up yet' right? :duh

If you are diving in a competition it's different, in those conditions you do have the time to do prep etc but then I don't call competitions 'real world diving' :D

Another example - yesterday I went to the sea with a friend and we were swimming along, watching the bottom for something interesting so that we could dive and take a closer look. Needless to say it's very hard to get into a 2:1 breathing and deep breaths when you are swimming along and when you do see a fish and want to dive deeper, you have next to no time to prepare...

I am not an expert by any means but that's just my personal experience so far. Others might disagree.
 
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FreeRestriction

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May 23, 2009
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Well I didn't mean line diving but let's take that as an example - you are recovering and watching your buddy and trying to get into your 2:1 breathing etc. All of a sudden your buddy is in trouble and you need to dive down to get him - you can't exactly say 'hold on I haven't done my breath up yet' right? :duh

If you are diving in a competition it's different, in those conditions you do have the time to do prep etc but then I don't call competitions 'real world diving' :D

Another example - yesterday I went to the sea with a friend and we were swimming along, watching the bottom for something interesting so that we could dive and take a closer look. Needless to say it's very hard to get into a 2:1 breathing and deep breaths when you are swimming along and when you do see a fish and want to dive deeper, you have next to no time to prepare...

I am not an expert by any means but that's just my personal experience so far. Others might disagree.

Yeah to each their own but if my version of breathup is cutoff in any situation so is a natural resting breath. Especially if ones natural resting breath dosent involve breathing with the diaphram as recovery will take longer to totally reoxygenate the body. Breathing up the way i describe simply just more efficiently reoxygenates the body reducing required surface times. Even if you only got in a single breath youd have better used that short time for recovery.

Atleast in theory this is my understanding.

I use to start a breath hold from a relaxed natural breath and 3:20 was my PB static with contractions starting at 1:30 quite heavily. With this new method i easily held to 3min (max aloud in class) with contractions coming on only very lightly at 2:30. Thats a direct contradiction to a sign of hyperventilation which should bring on contractions very heavy. And i have no doubt i could destroy my PB now. Im sure ill hit 4mins + on my next pool session.

I actually had trouble focusing because i was fighting laughter from amazement of how easy the hold felt.
 
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growingupninja

growingupninja

Lance (@socalspearit)
Mar 20, 2011
712
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Re: hr and breathe up
My experience, doing dry low intensity dynamic sets with a pulse O2 meter has been this... At a very relaxed, normal resting, my O2 sat varies. If I am extremely relaxed and still, pulse may be mid 50's and O2 sat as low as 95, breathing is very slow/shallow and from the diaphram. A little exertion and pulse rises and breathing quickens, O2 sat also climbs to 98-99%, which is basically my exercising rate. Now, doing apnea work, during my non-hold periods HR is high and of course much higher than during apnea. On a CO2 set where I am not actually running much of an O2 deficit (maybe 90 secs work that takes O2 down to mid-nineties%) it takes only a breath or two (big full lung breaths) to bring O2 back to 98%, although it takes 3-4 times longer to actually vent accumulated CO2, and O2 as registered by fingertip may not reach that level until some seconds AFTER starting the next hold if my interval is aggressive. And once CO2 is vented HR drops. Blood O2 sat will stay at 98% for a long time after exercising however. So yes, a higher hr is good for oxygenating tissues but my body at least doesn't need any prompting. Basically the less conscious thought I put into breathing the better the next hold will be from the standpoint of actual O2 consumed, which is more evident on longer, more hypoxic sets.

So for me, if I was super relaxed and still (not a real world diving state), my O2 might be as low as 95%, and a 'breathe-up' of 2-3 deep breaths or maybe 10 jumping jacks would put me at 98-99%. More 'breathe-up' is either procrastination or hyperventilation.
 
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growingupninja

growingupninja

Lance (@socalspearit)
Mar 20, 2011
712
162
83
Yeah to each their own but if my version of breathup is cutoff in any situation so is a natural resting breath. Especially if ones natural resting breath dosent involve breathing with the diaphram as recovery will take longer to totally reoxygenate the body. Breathing up the way i describe simply just more efficiently reoxygenates the body reducing required surface times. Even if you only got in a single breath youd have better used that short time for recovery.

Atleast in theory this is my understanding.

I use to start a breath hold from a relaxed natural breath and 3:20 was my PB static with contractions starting at 1:30 quite heavily. With this new method i easily held to 3min (max aloud in class) with contractions coming on only very lightly at 2:30. Thats a direct contradiction to a sign of hyperventilation which should bring on contractions very heavy. And i have no doubt i could destroy my PB now. Im sure ill hit 4mins + on my next pool session.

I actually had trouble focusing because i was fighting laughter from amazement of how easy the hold felt.

Actually delayed contractions is typically a sign of hyperventilation. That's why people do it in a lot of cases... If you are very relaxed they might come later, and if you have been doing exercises, breathhold or otherwise, throughout the day, or previous statics--anything that raises your CO2 level--they also come later because your body becomes acclimated to the CO2. I have tested this on an O2 meter as have numerous others.. You can hyperventate, delaying contractions but you will end the hold with substantially less O2. Contractions are part of DR and they may be uncomfortable but they are nearly always related to the onset of vasoconstriction and bradycardia. If you have trained your CO2 tolerance they may come later, or much more mildly. It varies, and in many people contractions may be triggered by many factors besides high CO2.

This is also the legitimate arguement of the 'no warm-up' camp. I have very little interest in competitive statics but my DR comes in strongest on my first couple holds of any day/training session, and they are also the most uncomfortable.
 
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FreeRestriction

New Member
May 23, 2009
357
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Originally Posted by FreeRestriction
Yeah to each their own but if my version of breathup is cutoff in any situation so is a natural resting breath. Especially if ones natural resting breath dosent involve breathing with the diaphram as recovery will take longer to totally reoxygenate the body. Breathing up the way i describe simply just more efficiently reoxygenates the body reducing required surface times. Even if you only got in a single breath youd have better used that short time for recovery.

Atleast in theory this is my understanding.

I use to start a breath hold from a relaxed natural breath and 3:20 was my PB static with contractions starting at 1:30 quite heavily. With this new method i easily held to 3min (max aloud in class) with contractions coming on only very lightly at 2:30. Thats a direct contradiction to a sign of hyperventilation which should bring on contractions very heavy. And i have no doubt i could destroy my PB now. Im sure ill hit 4mins + on my next pool session.

I actually had trouble focusing because i was fighting laughter from amazement of how easy the hold felt.

Actually delayed contractions is typically a sign of hyperventilation. That's why people do it in a lot of cases... If you are very relaxed they might come later, and if you have been doing exercises, breathhold or otherwise, throughout the day, or previous statics--anything that raises your CO2 level--they also come later because your body becomes acclimated to the CO2. I have tested this on an O2 meter as have numerous others.. You can hyperventate, delaying contractions but you will end the hold with substantially less O2. Contractions are part of DR and they may be uncomfortable but they are nearly always related to the onset of vasoconstriction and bradycardia. If you have trained your CO2 tolerance they may come later, or much more mildly. It varies, and in many people contractions may be triggered by many factors besides high CO2.

This is also the legitimate arguement of the 'no warm-up' camp. I have very little interest in competitive statics but my DR comes in strongest on my first couple holds of any day/training session, and they are also the most uncomfortable.
Delayed contractions would be hyperventilating related but being lighter then normal when they do occur? I thought they come on harder when they finally come on after hyperventilation.
 
Simos

Simos

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2009
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Delayed contractions would be hyperventilating related but being lighter then normal when they do occur? I thought they come on harder when they finally come on after hyperventilation.

Last year I had a very similar experience as you - even my static numbers were very similar and also I also couldn't wipe the smile off my face when I had done a static very close to 4 mins that felt like the easiest in the world, I don't remember any contractions (maybe I had some light ones) and I felt I could have gone for a lot longer.

I know of people that hit around 5mins in comps using HV and they progressed very fast to that but after they hit a plateau and were having trouble doing more - also it was difficult to get white cards. So they had to go back to basics and start statics without any HV, starting with lower numbers etc

I don't know where they are at currently and whether or not they hit their old PBs yet but they seemed pretty convinced after this journey that they wouldn't progress further unless they stopped HV.

By the way we are not talking abou recovery breaths here, nor we are saying that diaphragmatic breathing is not good - just not super deep breathing that leads to HV. As mentioned above, 2-3 breaths should be enough for oxygenation and contractions are your friends...
 
S

sai

Active Member
Feb 19, 2012
179
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Delayed contractions would be hyperventilating related but being lighter then normal when they do occur? I thought they come on harder when they finally come on after hyperventilation.

For me hyperventilating delays contractions AND makes them softer. Needless to say I'm pretty tempted to always do it. :duh
BTW you're talking about involving or not not involving the diaphragm in breathe-ups. Is it possible to not use the diaphragm at all while breathing? I'm really not so familiar with the anatomy that I could tell. :eek:
 
growingupninja

growingupninja

Lance (@socalspearit)
Mar 20, 2011
712
162
83
Delayed contractions would be hyperventilating related but being lighter then normal when they do occur? I thought they come on harder when they finally come on after hyperventilation.

Contractions are very different for everyone, and even among the same person may vary on a daily basis, but I have never heard of hyperventilation causing stronger contractions. Hyperventilation kills divers and the idea of 'breathe-up' is a very slippery slope.
 
Mr_Green

Mr_Green

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Jun 24, 2012
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I'm trying to understand, for those of you which experimented with O2 meter, what is the delta (difference) between deep breath ups 2:1 and regular tidal relaxed breathing in means of %saturation?
 
S

sai

Active Member
Feb 19, 2012
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The blood is almost always fully saturated, hyperventilating only makes a 1% difference iirc. But this positive effect is easily outweighed by the negative effects hyperventilating has.
 
Mr_Green

Mr_Green

New Member
Jun 24, 2012
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I wonder why freedivers are instructed to do the deep 2:1 breathing than, if it can lead to HV...?
 
S

sulaco

Member
Dec 12, 2011
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Because freediving is a small sport and a lot is still poorly understood, even at the top level.
 
S

sai

Active Member
Feb 19, 2012
179
9
33
Well it gives beginners big improvements in breath holding capability in a vey short amount of time. So one factor is motivation. And on the other hand, just getting told it is easier to relax while doing a certain breathing pattern will help beginners to get themselves quicker in a calm and focused state of mind.
 
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FreeRestriction

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May 23, 2009
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Well we all can agree that inhaling using the diaphram for the breath hold is a must correct?
 
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