Breath holding prohibition at YMCA pools?

[Terry/P]

I have been swimming for a couple of years at the YMCA pool in San Luis Obispo, CA. It recently reopened after a major rehabilitation. While it was closed, the management apparently attended a safety conference where they were informed that any breath holding exercises are so dangerous that they should be prohibited. I have done a lot of underwater work there over the years and have upped my submerged time with mild exercise up to 2'30". 50 yards of slow swimming is not a tough
thing. 75 yards at a higher speed was my longest distance. About a year ago I went to the Channel Islands (off Santa Barbara) with friends and dove and explored at 35' without strain.

That given, I have been told that I was now limited by the folks at the pool to 15 yards of underwater swimming max, no hyperventilation permitted. I think that they allow that length because it is what is permitted in competition.

To accommodate that, I changed my exercize regimen from a 1 mile warm-up with a number of slow 50 yd underwater laps to:

ZA

A continuous one mile swim with the first 15 yards of each 100 yds swam underwater, followed by a number of back to back 15 yd underwater slow swims at 13' depth. I recently began doing those laps with 4# of lead shot in one hand to counter my buoyancy so I don't have to expend energy just to stay down. I did manage to make one 15 yd swim last for one and a half minutes. I do try to keep moving so I can convince the lifeguards that I am not passed out down there.

Bottom line: i was told that hyperventilating and diving to 13' was not permitted I could be ejected from the pool. Question: have any of you out there been told similar things?

Do you have a good definition of hyperventilation (H/V)? Is breathing hard after strenuous laps H/V?
How about deep breathing like I also do in yoga and meditation? I used to H/V to an extreme when I0I was very young. When I now try to recover from exertion and prep for a dive I do not think that I am hyperventilating.

I love to swim in the pool but am dismayed by the new policy.

Is there any rebuttal to their fears: apparently related to shallow water blackouts associated with competetive breath holding for distance or time?

 

[neurodoc]

I have been swimming for a couple of years at the YMCA pool in San Luis Obispo, CA. It recently reopened after a major rehabilitation. While it was closed, the management apparently attended a safety conference where they were informed that any breath holding exercises are so dangerous that they should be prohibited. I have done a lot of underwater work there over the years and have upped my submerged time with mild exercise up to 2'30". 50 yards of slow swimming is not a tough
thing. 75 yards at a higher speed was my longest distance. About a year ago I went to the Channel Islands (off Santa Barbara) with friends and dove and explored at 35' without strain.

That given, I have been told that I was now limited by the folks at the pool to 15 yards of underwater swimming max, no hyperventilation permitted. I think that they allow that length because it is what is permitted in competition.

To accommodate that, I changed my exercize regimen from a 1 mile warm-up with a number of slow 50 yd underwater laps to:

ZA

A continuous one mile swim with the first 15 yards of each 100 yds swam underwater, followed by a number of back to back 15 yd underwater slow swims at 13' depth. I recently began doing those laps with 4# of lead shot in one hand to counter my buoyancy so I don't have to expend energy just to stay down. I did manage to make one 15 yd swim last for one and a half minutes. I do try to keep moving so I can convince the lifeguards that I am not passed out down there.

Bottom line: i was told that hyperventilating and diving to 13' was not permitted I could be ejected from the pool. Question: have any of you out there been told similar things?

Do you have a good definition of hyperventilation (H/V)? Is breathing hard after strenuous laps H/V?
How about deep breathing like I also do in yoga and meditation? I used to H/V to an extreme when I0I was very young. When I now try to recover from exertion and prep for a dive I do not think that I am hyperventilating.

I love to swim in the pool but am dismayed by the new policy.

Is there any rebuttal to their fears: apparently related to shallow water blackouts associated with competetive breath holding for distance or time?

Hi Terry-old thread, I realize! but I also swim in a YMCA pool, and while they still allow me to do some 25yd apnea lengths, they are posting more "no breatholding" signs. I'm interested to know how things progressed at your pool or if you have found an audience to your objections. I am thinking of starting a finswimming club as a workaround, as 50AP is an event.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Moved to General Freediving

 

[Sorandril]

I have been swimming for a couple of years at the YMCA pool in San Luis Obispo, CA. It recently reopened after a major rehabilitation. While it was closed, the management apparently attended a safety conference where they were informed that any breath holding exercises are so dangerous that they should be prohibited. I have done a lot of underwater work there over the years and have upped my submerged time with mild exercise up to 2'30". 50 yards of slow swimming is not a tough
thing. 75 yards at a higher speed was my longest distance. About a year ago I went to the Channel Islands (off Santa Barbara) with friends and dove and explored at 35' without strain.

That given, I have been told that I was now limited by the folks at the pool to 15 yards of underwater swimming max, no hyperventilation permitted. I think that they allow that length because it is what is permitted in competition.

To accommodate that, I changed my exercize regimen from a 1 mile warm-up with a number of slow 50 yd underwater laps to:

ZA

A continuous one mile swim with the first 15 yards of each 100 yds swam underwater, followed by a number of back to back 15 yd underwater slow swims at 13' depth. I recently began doing those laps with 4# of lead shot in one hand to counter my buoyancy so I don't have to expend energy just to stay down. I did manage to make one 15 yd swim last for one and a half minutes. I do try to keep moving so I can convince the lifeguards that I am not passed out down there.

Bottom line: i was told that hyperventilating and diving to 13' was not permitted I could be ejected from the pool. Question: have any of you out there been told similar things?

Do you have a good definition of hyperventilation (H/V)? Is breathing hard after strenuous laps H/V?
How about deep breathing like I also do in yoga and meditation? I used to H/V to an extreme when I0I was very young. When I now try to recover from exertion and prep for a dive I do not think that I am hyperventilating.

I love to swim in the pool but am dismayed by the new policy.

Is there any rebuttal to their fears: apparently related to shallow water blackouts associated with competetive breath holding for distance or time?

I’m trying to come up with one because they think any time over 30 seconds is dangerous. The statistics on drowning don’t seem to match up to the hype and I think more comprehensive swimming education is the answer anyway. Considering how popular underwater diving is even on a snorkeling level, I’d frankly integrate basic knowledge into swimming courses. I can’t believe how rare it is to be told not to hyperventilate especially years ago when my father taught me such. A majority of these accidents that are being hyped in the media are the result of either that or testing limits instead of coming up at the first signal to breathe.

 

[Sorandril]

I’m trying to come up with one because they think any time over 30 seconds is dangerous. The statistics on drowning don’t seem to match up to the hype and I think more comprehensive swimming education is the answer anyway. Considering how popular underwater diving is even on a snorkeling level, I’d frankly integrate basic knowledge into swimming courses. I can’t believe how rare it is to be told not to hyperventilate especially years ago when my father taught me such. A majority of these accidents that are being hyped in the media are the result of either that or testing limits instead of coming up at the first signal to breathe.

Btw it’s the “aquatic safety research group” and “shallow water blackout prevention “ that are doing this. I am trying to debunk their hype but I can’t get a hold of the data Griffiths is using because all they have to offer is a blanket guideline that only 15-20 seconds or meters is safe. They also are pushing a line about rare genetic triggers that pushes this to a new level of ludicrous. I also can’t figure out why they seem to think that breathing urges don’t occur.

 

[freediverdude]

It's really all about litigation and insurance companies here in the US unfortunately. If someone accidentally drowns here, the family sues the pool organization either for a huge settlement or into bankruptcy, instead of an attitude of personal responsibility like in other countries. Hence the insurance companies try to insist on these policies in order to insure the pool. Same reason a lot of hotel pools are now very shallow and basically unusable. The insurance cost or the company insisting on a shallow pool to insure. It's just ridiculous, and the US really needs to get over this nanny state thing where they try to babyproof everything or sue over it. The courts here need to quit entertaining these types of cases.

 

[Sorandril]

Btw it’s the “aquatic safety research group” and “shallow water blackout prevention “ that are doing this. I am trying to debunk their hype but I can’t get a hold of the data Griffiths is using because all they have to offer is a blanket guideline that only 15-20 seconds or meters is safe. They also are pushing a line about rare genetic triggers that pushes this to a new level of ludicrous. I also can’t figure out why they seem to think that breathing urges don’t occur.

It's really all about litigation and insurance companies here in the US unfortunately. If someone accidentally drowns here, the family sues the pool organization either for a huge settlement or into bankruptcy, instead of an attitude of personal responsibility like in other countries. Hence the insurance companies try to insist on these policies in order to insure the pool. Same reason a lot of hotel pools are now very shallow and basically unusable. The insurance cost or the company insisting on a shallow pool to insure. It's just ridiculous, and the US really needs to get over this nanny state thing where they try to babyproof everything or sue over it. The courts here need to quit entertaining these types of cases.

The worst part of it is that children are being taught that going underwater is dangerous period and like a 1 in 6 chance of SWB by these people. Even freediving has caught this bug in some quarters and is sponsoring Milner and Griffiths in their religious right crusade.

I’m looking for statistics on swim practice back when they did underwaters etc because Griffiths and co are not very forthcoming on their data. All I can find is 300 million pool visits recordable vs 3500 deaths.

 

[Sorandril]

Also, I bet dollars to donuts that if Alexei were American, he’d right now be trying to ban freediving in the name of his mother and spouting the same rhetoric- their risk chart has professional competitive freediving down at the bottom!

and yes believe it or not I’m American- I just don’t believe in the therapy and brainwashing that has captivated the rest of my generation.

 

[Sorandril]

And to everyone who wonders why this issue is so personal to me...

these people made me wonder if my dad was raising me unsafely by letting me swim underwater and in fact encouraging me to freedive at some points

especially that hit piece in swimming world magazine where this young woman was persuaded by Milner et al. That her upbringing as a swimmer was unsafe and that she could have died at any time and not been recoverable due to cardiac arrest.

that made me wonder if I could have cut out and died at any time during my childhood and it drove a rift between me and my father... he argues statistics in response and says that these sites are being ridiculous.

However, the rules that he taught me would make AIDA proud and all he did was grow up in Florida According to him... so...

 

[Sorandril]

BTW heres our beloved Dr. Pollock taking on the ban people:

Responses to Questions/Statements Regarding Blackout Events | NDPA.org

Last week, the NDPA posted an article by Dr. Neal Pollock entitled "Loss of Consciousness in Breath-Holding Swimmers". The article received comments on the

web.archive.org

Or: in this corner: DAN! In that corner, BAN!

 

[Sorandril]

Another thing to point out:

If someone has a medical issue and goes under the surface, dont they also risk "disappearing beneath the surface" and being invisible to lifeguards?

Therefore what they are saying is that their facility is NOT SAFE, and tell them youre headed out to the river because you trust Dana more.

 

[Sorandril]

Synchro Unders = Risky Business – The Online Synchro Coach

theonlinesynchrocoach.com

A way forward? (except for referring to propaganda)

Imagine a world in which all swimmers were educated like this. Except for the idea that swimming more than 25m under has no purpose - she got that from the crazies.

 

[growingupninja]

Most pools that have a an actual swim team who trains there allow a certain amount of underwater swimming. The YMCA guidelines are beyond a joke to any current or former competitive swimmer (most lifeguards have this background). Anyone who ever raced long course 50M freestyle at a high level can tell you that most swimmers don't even bother to breathe and on a 100M race you might breathe just once or twice. It's mostly liability and stupid people; those same pools will often allow synchro, underwater hockey, trendy underwater weight lifting in the deep end, competitive style fin swimming, but 'freediving' or 'breathhold' is officially prohibited. Competitive freediving IS actually very low risk when done with proper protocols. In the last 20 years in sanctioned competition in oceans and pools worldwide the only death was Nick Mevoli. However, when freediving is broadened to include spearfishing and recreational skin diving/snorkeling, etc, it becomes the most dangerous sport next to base jumping when you look at the incidence of death among participants. Take a class.

 

[Sorandril]

Most pools that have a an actual swim team who trains there allow a certain amount of underwater swimming. The YMCA guidelines are beyond a joke to any current or former competitive swimmer (most lifeguards have this background). Anyone who ever raced long course 50M freestyle at a high level can tell you that most swimmers don't even bother to breathe and on a 100M race you might breathe just once or twice. It's mostly liability and stupid people; those same pools will often allow synchro, underwater hockey, trendy underwater weight lifting in the deep end, competitive style fin swimming, but 'freediving' or 'breathhold' is officially prohibited. Competitive freediving IS actually very low risk when done with proper protocols. In the last 20 years in sanctioned competition in oceans and pools worldwide the only death was Nick Mevoli. However, when freediving is broadened to include spearfishing and recreational skin diving/snorkeling, etc, it becomes the most dangerous sport next to base jumping when you look at the incidence of death among participants. Take a class.

I dunno, millions seem to snorkel every year (seen them in Florida) and drowning deaths are only 3500 total, National. I’m looking for any other solid stats on this besides the 1 in 500 from Nestor ages ago. Statistically if that were true they would have shut down Florida long ago.

the problem at the pool is that the generation brought up on leashes grew up and introduced us to safetyism and the idea that all accidents can be prevented if we don’t go in the water ever and no risk is ever acceptable. USA Swimming’s even promoting this mentality now and I am betting on Sweden, Norway and Japan next year with a side bet on the US team wearing vests.

still.... don’t dive or swim alone, why do you think my kind always seem to come in pairs?